Yeah, it is probably okay. They will need training that is not based on the written word, but we have pictograms for important things like poison anyway. I am sure there have been many people throughout history that have cleaned or tended plants without knowing how to read. I am not saying they should be prevented from learning to read or anything, just that there are jobs you can do without having strong reading skills. It doesn't take a reader to push the button with the picture of a Big Mac on it. You think a society where not everyone goes through a college prep high school is dystopian? What if we charge people for health care and food? What if we arrest people for drinking specially prepared grape juice before operating their conveyance? Germany has a tiered educational system under which the children are sorted into different scholastic paths leading to different careers. The sorting happens around age 10 in much of the country, age 12 in a few areas, following what is called primary school. Is that is dystopian society? They seem to be doing okay.
That is the other point. What more do you want done Sweet Lou? More mentoring? More school? Different teaching techniques? Forced schooling of kids?
They have a choice. The kids and their parents. Someone may have high grades or be a genious but want to go to plumbling business because of a family business . He can. Or want to be a gardener because he likes planting. He also can. Also someone may want to be an engineer even if he doesn't have high IQ. He also can and try take the Abitur multiple times (as far I know at least- which was some years ago). There is also the open university someone can attend as adult. Or pay for a university and go study. Yes it is absolutely dystopian what you describe because it takes out of the equation the FREE WILL. What makes us humans. I would absolutely hate to live in such a world. I prefer to live in a world that someone can choose what he wants to do in their life with all choices open, and have a passion and will to do their job than being enforced to them by a state "for the good of society". What is the good of society if the society isn't happy? If it's enslaved like that? As I said go read Brave New World. As for the pictograms etc, you take out of these people their means to be further educated in other things besides their job. A gardener may want to read poetry. If you don't teach him to read, he will never be able to read or learn anything else in his life. You are imprisoning him in a cave. Absolutely terrifying.
Raising teacher pay (A LOT) would be a good place to start IMO. Becoming a teacher should be a profession that is competitive, not one that is filled by people that used teaching as a backup profession. I know there are plenty of people that teach as a calling but I want my kids taught by the best teacher and until the pay makes teaching a position to compete for I don't see this happening. Also, parents should be teaching their kids to read but obviously that is not happening. Parents involvement in education is another key. My kids went to the best elementary in our town and my wife was the nurse at the worst. On parent teacher conference night you couldn't park within 4 blocks of my kids school and my wife's school was a ghost town. I know that some parents may work nights and that would explain low participation not zero participation. If parents don't care about their children's education the kids won't either.
Speaking of Germany and higher education. I like how they give free rides for college. You can become a doctor on their dime. Huge difference compared to the money sinks in the US plus its punitive laws on student loan forgiveness. They seem to be doing okay with their socialist model.
We do have forced schooling don't we? I don't think it's legal to not school your kids. And we have tried different teaching techniques as well
They have open university with rather stringent entrance requirements. They can choose to learn to read and pass the requirements. Free will does not mean a life free from consequences. Who said anything about slavery? No one would be preventing people from doing anything, and certainly would not be forcing anyone to do something without compensation. Honestly I am not seeing the connection to Brave New World. No one is talking about elimination of reproduction, drugging the populace, a strictly enforced caste system, cloning, a world government, and the elimination of independent thought. I am talking about not passing people on to the next grade just because they got another year older and recognizing that some people are not college bound so there is no point in trying to force a square peg through a round hole. Are you under the impression I am trying to outlaw reading? No one is suggesting not allowing people to read. I am saying if someone can't or won't learn to read, they should not be dragged along through the one-size-fits-all American educational system and sent out to apply for colleges and jobs that they are woefully unprepared for. If the gardener wants to learn to read poetry he can do so. If he wants to enjoy poetry without learning to read he can buy it on tape. You are much too easily alarmed. Given that public school teachers tend to make more and have better benefits than private school teachers (where there is more of a free labor market), it is apparent that they are not underpaid. This is not surprising as their unions are among the most powerful in the United States. Good teachers are willing to work for the money that is paid now at the private school level, let alone the public school level. Teaching is also a highly competitive job market depending on the subject matter. It can be very difficult to find a job teaching English (the subject, not English as a second language), Social Studies, etc. Math and Science jobs tend to have more openings, because the educational requirements are more difficult and there are a wider array of jobs available once those educational requirements are met. Someone with a degree in Physics is more marketable than someone with a degree in Social Studies. Ultimately, teachers being underpaid is a myth, one largely begun and kept alive by the teachers themselves.
More forced schooling lol...I don't know what Sweet Lou wants And just because different techniques have been tried doesn't mean that you should stop trying to find more effective ones. As I mentioned earlier in the thread Khan Academy is a revolutionary way of teaching math and sciences. I have not seen something similar for reading and writing.
I don't have solutions as I am not an expert in education. I don't think throwing more money is the solution though. I don't think public schools are working for these kids. I don't think the problem is necessarily the schools (although it is in some cases. Some of these inner city schools are awful. I've seen 50 kids in a beat-up falling apart classroom). Still the issue is not the school or the teachers or even class size. The issue is one of that the kids undergo incredible challenges at a young age. Loss of father, a mother who is always at work, feelings safe at home, nutrition, poverty, a lack of help or encouragement (which is pretty damn important to a kid). Is more mentoring the solution? Maybe. The boys and girls clubs are very successful in taking inner city kids who were struggling and turning them into lawyers and doctors by just creating an after school environment where they can feel safe and get positive belief in themselves. The results are dramatic. Maybe all that I want is just for more people to care.
I always liked the charter and voucher for private school ideas to transition a lot of these kids to better schools, but not a lot of people like those ideas.
Again it's not necessarily the school that is the problem. Voucher programs have now shown much success. Vast majority of the people who take vouchers are already in private school (as the voucher doesn't cover the full tuition) and thus you are just diverting funds away from public schools to help others pay their kids private school tuition. Private schools tend to take students out based on mental abilities and religious affiliation - dumping all the special needs kids back on the public thus raising the cost per pupil of public school. There are good reasons people oppose vouchers. Studies have not shown that they make an impact on results either.
It isn't necessarily about taking the best, and the vision is eventually to take all the students out of bad schools. I think there are studies that have shown improvement. But I agree it isn't just about the schools. The home environment is a factor as well.
