Franchise player who never even won a playoff series in a waterdown conference. Tmac is a fantastic talent--but as a team leader, clutch player and team player he has a ton to prove--more than Pierce even if he has more talent. Conveintly forgot Pierce carried his team to the ECF 2 years ago while T-mac was calling out his teamates and getting his butt dusted again. Your logic on franchise versus second tier all star is faulty-- probably 99% of GMs would take either Duncan or KG over T-mac so I guess the latter must not be the 1st tier huh? I agree with you Tmac is certainly a better talent than Pierce--thus would have greater GM interest, but their overall resume's as players is not that different. Further IMO, Pierce is the 3rd best guard/swingman in the league--just behind Kobe and then T-Mac--if he isn't a "Franchise player" he is like Dirk, Kidd and Webber in that they are awefully darned close. Certainly these guys are closer to Tmac than Tmac is to Duncan, outside of TD, a healthy Shaq, and maybe KG (we will see) there really isn't anyone else who has a good case for being able to single handly lead a franchise.
RIET, Most all GM's would take a real All-Star over a 2nd pick, just like canoner2002 says. That's not really arguable. I mean, hell, Red got the #1 for his leading scorer Bob McAdoo that led to McHale and Parish. then again, I think that proves your point.
Personally, i think Pierce,Tracy, and Kobe are neck and neck. I don't think either can win the ring without good help. Replace Kobe with Pierce or McGrady and they still win the ring with Shaq. Put McGrady in Boston or Kobe in Orlando, and those teams pretty much do the same. Pierce is only 25, so its not like he's that much older than the other. I think its T-Mack,Kobe, then Pierce, but its kinda like the Payton vs Kidd argument. Kidd was in the west and was no better than a 5th or 6th seed. Payton when he had a healthy Kemp, he was in the finals, so its a wash.
McAdoo never played for the Celts , but i get your point. The thing is, they traded their number 1 overral for the #3 and Parrish. red was probably the only person who knew Parish was going to be a very good productive center. The Warriors took Joe Barry with the number 1.
Yao's height was not unknown, his shooting touch was not unknown and his BB IQ was not unknown. People saw him play in Sydney and WBT. And his CBA numbers are just amazing. He was still a bet but I liked the chance of that bet. What about this Darko? his height, 7', is not so rare in NBA. His shooting, as I saw, less impressive than Yao's before he joined NBA. His IQ? how to judge? His being picked as #2 is mostly based on his potential and Pistons' need for an inside scorer, rather than what assets he currently has.
I didnt "conveniently forget". I left it out because it proves my point even more. Ok, 2 years ago they go to the Eastern Conference Finals. This season they win 44 games and get swept in the 2nd round with an extra year together. Meanwhile in Orlando, Mike Miller, Orlando's second best player gets traded in midseason and they win 42 games. I don't see the big difference. Also, look at TMac's improvement from last year. Look at Paul Pierce. I will make a friendly wager that Orlando will be better than Boston next year with a full season from Gooden and Giricek. I would not say that 99% of GM's would take KG over Tmac. they are very similiar, especially when you factor in TMac's age. Other than Duncan, you can make an argument that TMac worth as much as any player in the league. TMac is compared to Kobe Bryant. Which of the following does not belong? TMac, Kobe, Paul Pierce.
bull. TMac is a top player, no matter how you slice it. He is 2 yrs younger than Francis. You make it sound like he is a chronic loser. Every GM on the planet would take him over any other guard in the league (short of Kobe, maybe). Is that really arguable. The guy has no team.
He's also not that bad of a point guard either...... Steve is still a all star guys............ You guys act like the guy is garbage...... He just needs to refine his point skills thats all........ Besides KIdd and Payton, who really is all that great of a point anyway?????
Steve is great, but as a GM, I would trade SF for Pierce. You get a better Shooting Guard, and can always get a decent PG, like a Fisher clone. In a team with Pierce and Ming, the PG's role is to give the ball to either Pierce or Ming, and wait at the perimeter to be ready to shoot the 3 ball. It is an easy job, don't try to be a hero. The problem for a team with Steve and Ming is that Steve has to distribute the ball as well as scoring. It is not as easy as you think.
gosh people. why cant we just give the team we have a chance. it doesnt matter how good the players are if we switch them every year. we need to keep the same nucleus with van gundy as a coach for at least 3-4 years to see if anything develops, and im pretty sure it will.
People have used this statement so many times it becomes a Motto without thinking it over. Now let's look back at the past 10 NBA champions. Tell me which PG plays the pivotal role or a MVP-type player? Spurs --? Parker? Lakers 3 times ---? Fisher Spurs --? A. Johnson Bulls ---? Ron Harper Rox --- ?? ??? Bulls ---? ??? Please tell me which PG is an all-star. The fact is, PG is important to win a champioinship, but you do not need an all-star to win it. If you have a superstar in a SG or a superstar in a center. Your PG's role is to give the ball to your superstar and be ready to shoot the 3 when the ball is passed back to you.
damn, you are at clutchcity.net and cant remember smith/cassell?! For the Buls the 1st three times around it was BJ Armstrong I believe (but he may have come off the bench).
Celts would not part w/Pierce unless Francis is involved. Superstar for superstar. So forget about it. Waste of a thread. Keep dreamin'.
No it does not support your point. In comparing playoff success it is directly relevant. Pierce has had more than Tmac around him, but Pierce has a pretty bad supporting cast too and led them the the EC finals and EC semis. There is no question Pierce was the guy to advance Boston. As for Boston versus Orlando--I would wait and see what offseason moves happen before hazarding a guess. I think they would be crazy if the selected Tmac over KG--I think at least 90% would select KG. Tmac just doesn't impact the game defensively like KG does to go along with being the center of the offense. I am not the only one who disagrees with you..... HP you kind of took what I said out of context. I did say Tmac is the 4th or 5th best player. I believe he is better than Pierce also--who is somewhere in the 6th-9th range. But neither Tmac nor kobe has carried a successful team by themselves even at the level of KG has, let alone a healthy Shaq or TD. IMO Pierce if closer to Tmac in his total impact on the game than T-mac is to the total impact Duncan for instance--this is the center of this debate. So it is slicing and dicing to say Tmac is a franchise player, TD is a franchise player and Pierce IS NOT (Reits whole point). Maybe TD is a true franchise player--the kind to take modest players around him and compete for a title, Tmac is a franchise player "lite" and Pierce is a almost franchise player--if Reit said this I could by it.
The problem with this whole thread is it's based on the ravings of the always wussy Danny Ainge (I hate that punk!). Can we believe him? Who cares! He's a worm! By the by, I think Walker would hit the bricks long before Paul P., but please, no more posts that mention Danny Ainge (by name even, oh, the humanity!) in the first sentence unless it has something to do with Ralph jacking him up! Sampson V. Ainge '86=
no way the rockets could ever land a free agent like pierce.....lets think about it guys...these are the rockets we're talking about
If this report is true and Pierce is on the trading block, I would give up anyone on our team not named Francis or Ming. Whatever combo of players and picks Boston wants for him would work for me. I know I am going to get alot of heat for this but I would rather have Pierce on my team then Kobe or T-mac. Pierce can do it all. Hit the 3, drive to the lane and get to the foul line, score from the post, and play great D. With Francis and Pierce in the backcourt and Ming with whomever else up front we are a championship level team.
Personally I'll prefer a bigman addition instead of another guard... especially in the western conference... a Duncan, Garnet or even a Nowitzki I think will be much more effectivel than a T-mac, Kobe or Pierce to handle someone like Shaq... you need bigs... more bigs in the bigger western conference...
