Of course, the Israel Lobby is a myth

Stop speaking in generalities, please. I'd genuinely like to know. Give me a tangible example of when Israeli's launched an unprovoked attack. We already know this latest cease fire was broken by the Hamas. Israel was provoked by violence.

I define legit "self defense" as responding to physical violence. I teach my kids every day that if their brother/sister calls them a name, that isn't justification for responding with a punch.

Real examples, please.

 

There is always provocation, I wasn't suggesting otherwise. I was merely suggesting that one side sees the retaliation as provocation for the next incident, not suggesting that there was no provocation at all.

The reason feuds like this can go on so long is that in this current Israeli raid, someone will lose a mother or brother, they will see that as provocation and seek revenge. When they seek that revenge in retaliation for what happened to their family member, someone on the other side will lose a mother or brother. In turn they'll seek revenge and it'll go on seemingly forever.

 

Again, give me examples.

In modern history, my recollection is that Palestinians are the first ones to initiate the violence and break a cease fire.

I DO recall Israel striking first in Iran, but I don't see that as directly relevant.

 

Specifics aren't required because I'm not arguing who was the first to initiate violence or break cease fires, the Palestinians are run by a terrorist government, of course they'd be the ones to break any cease fire or whatever, I'm just saying that they convince themselves that breaking the cease fire is actually retaliation for current living conditions or whatever. In the minds of a lot of Palestinians, the entire area of Israel is theirs because their ancestors stole it long before the Israelis stole it making their claim more valid. Since they see it that way, they think they have a permanent reason for conflict that is always the fault of the "zionists"

 

Right.

Again, a key problem is that if the Palestinians kick out the Jews, such as in Bethlehem, the Jews no longer have access to the land. The reverse is demonstrably not true, such as Jerusalem.

The Palestinians want the land and don't want to share. That's the fundamental issue.

 

I was using a real example. Before the second intifada the cease fire worked for over a year in the land for peace deal. Once Israel never gave the land after receiving the peace the cease fire ended.

It's as much breaking the treaty as it was when the U.S. settled on lands that were promised to the Indian tribes in the United States.

The actual violence happened in clashes between Israeli security forces and protestors, so the violence happened pretty much simultaneously.

But again one side promised something in exchange for peace and didn't follow through with their end of the bargain.

 

Please, show me the law that prohibits Arabs, specifically, from owning land. The link you provided does not name Arabs.

I have a Jewish brother in law. He told me we can't go visit Bethlehem because he's not allowed. I could go by myself, however. Jews are not allowed there.

 

I've been reading this but not participating. But I just wanted to ask... Do you write for the onion?

 

It's not a joke. This is 100% real.

Jews are not allowed in Bethlehem (controlled by Palestinians)
Arabs ARE allowed in Jerusalem (controlled by Israel)

NOBODY is allowed into an Islamic temple.
NOBODY is allowed to Mecca.
EVERYBODY is allowed into the Church of the Holy Sepulcher
EVERYBODY is allowed to the Wailing Wall.

It seems odd and I don't understand why more people are not aware.

 

Can someone point me to any self-critical post by a Palestinian (or Muslim) on the forum, where someone would basically say "it's (also) our own fault that the situation is what it is"?

I have a hard time finding anything through Google, either.

There are many self-critical articles from Israelis.

Is there freedom of speech in Gaza? I know there is in Israel.

 

It's a good question. One that came up before after 9/11 when there were no clerics that openly stood against the terrorists. Islamic leaders went on radio silence. I don't know why.

 

Palestinian demonstrator with Nazi tattoos:



There have been violent anti-semitic protests across Europe in the past few days.

Here is one from Berlin:

<iframe width="853" height="480" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/Y72N1SC3YyI" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Demonstrators chanted Allahu Akbar along with "Jude, Jude, feiges Schwein, komm heraus und kämpf allein." which translates to "Jew, Jew, cowardly pig, come out and fight alone."

We have similar people on this subforum - way too many of them.

 

By the way, Palestinians are disproportionately involved in drug trade and violent crime in Berlin. Of course, this must also be Israel's fault somehow.

 

That did not happen. After 9/11 Muslim clerics and groups around the world criticized the terrorists and Al Qaeda publicly.

I've posted a long list of statements that Muslims made against it in other threads.

I'll post just a small sample of some now.

http://islam.about.com/gi/o.htm?zi=...tp://groups.colgate.edu/aarislam/response.htm

http://islam.about.com/gi/o.htm?zi=...tp://groups.colgate.edu/aarislam/response.htm

http://islam.about.com/gi/o.htm?zi=...tp://groups.colgate.edu/aarislam/response.htm

http://islam.about.com/gi/o.htm?zi=...tp://groups.colgate.edu/aarislam/response.htm

http://islam.about.com/gi/o.htm?zi=...tp://groups.colgate.edu/aarislam/response.htm

The links have tons of statements by Muslim leaders against terrorism in general and 9/11 specifically. There are also numerous statements signed by entire groups of Muslim leaders against it.

These statements don't receive the media attention that more radical and extreme statements do, and many people are ignorant of them and the sentiment they express, but that doesn't mean that they didn't happen. It's just that when the Muslim leaders spoke out, many non-Muslims didn't listen.

 

Well, I stand corrected on this point regarding 9/11.

However, AroundTheWorld's point was asking why don't we see much, if any, self deprecating discussions about their role in the Palestinian conflict. As we know if any conflict, there are always two sides of a story. Palestinians have done a pretty good job at setting the tone that they are purely victims.

 

Yes, there is no doubt that they have done wrong. The terrorism they've carried out is undeniably wrong, and what may even worse is the wide scale corruption within their own governing groups going back decades and decades.

However as a whole they are oppressed. Only some of them are guilty of carrying out terrorism.

Either way they definitely need to address their wrongs if there is hope for a better future for them.

 

How are Palestinians oppressed? They asked for their own country and Israel granted their own land which they self govern.

 

They elected the terrorists as their government.

Not all Germans were Nazis. But Germany elected Nazis to be their government, and later on all Germans suffered from the air strikes on Germany (which were necessary to free the country).