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New study: Medicare for All Act would cost $32 trillion+ over next ten years

Discussion in 'BBS Hangout: Debate & Discussion' started by Os Trigonum, Jul 31, 2018.

  1. mtbrays

    mtbrays Contributing Member
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    If only the people suffering from cancer, MS and genetic disorders had made better choices! We'd have a perfectly function healthcare system that the rest of the developing word would be dying to emulate!
     
    DonnyMost, REEKO_HTOWN and NewRoxFan like this.
  2. mtbrays

    mtbrays Contributing Member
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  3. Senator

    Senator Member

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    You can learn from the mistakes of the previous generation. Genetics plays a very small role, nutrition and lifestyle play the largest. If you make that part of the culture you stop a lot of suffering , a lot of misunderstanding and a lot of healthcare costs.
     
    Astrodome likes this.
  4. fchowd0311

    fchowd0311 Contributing Member

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    Another thing this study doesn't factor is if everyone had had access to yearly checkup ups, overall health care costs would go down as a large chunk of people would not resort to medical treatment at the last moment.

    Preventive care saves money.
     
    Nook likes this.
  5. Os Trigonum

    Os Trigonum Contributing Member
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    study's author with followup in the WSJ:

    https://www.wsj.com/articles/even-doubling-taxes-wouldnt-pay-for-medicare-for-all-1533163559

    Even Doubling Taxes Wouldn’t Pay for ‘Medicare for All’
    Bernie Sanders’s brainstorm would cost taxpayers $32.6 trillion over the first decade.
    [​IMG]
    A protester in front of the U.S. Capitol, July 19. Photo: Bill Clark/Zuma Press
    132 Comments
    By
    Charles Blahous
    Aug. 1, 2018 6:46 p.m. ET

    The idea of “Medicare for All” has energized progressives ahead of November’s midterm elections. Across the country, candidates like New York congressional hopeful Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez have rallied to the slogan. Vermont Sen. Bernie Sanders introduced the Medicare for All Act last year and has so far rounded up 16 co-sponsors. Last month, 70 House members formed a Medicare for All Caucus.

    But there is an enormous gulf between the appealing idea of Medicare for All and the incredibly expensive reality. According to my calculations, paying for every American’s health-care expenses would increase federal spending by $32.6 trillion over the first decade of Medicare for All. Even if Congress were to double what it collects in individual and corporate income taxes, there still wouldn’t be enough money added to the federal coffers to finance the costs of this plan.

    While such large amounts of money are difficult to comprehend, my cost estimate is essentially a lower bound. Medicare for All’s actual price tag would likely be even higher. My projection generously assumes the plan would succeed in lowering prescription-drug costs and that administrative costs would somehow be less than half what they are among private insurers.

    Most important, it assumes Medicare for All would successfully cut all health-care provider payments down to Medicare’s reimbursement rates, which are more than 40% lower than private insurance rates—and even below providers’ costs of delivering services. Moreover, it assumes that Medicare for All will somehow do all this without disrupting the availability and quality of health care.

    Medicare for All would require an unprecedented rise in already unaffordable federal health-care subsidies, which are currently equal to about 6.6% of gross domestic product. The plan would expand federal taxpayers’ obligations by 10.7% of GDP right away. That would rise to 12.7% of GDP and beyond within 10 years of full implementation—over and above taxpayer obligations under current law. This would be even more expensive than tripling all future federal appropriations spending, including national defense and domestic discretionary appropriations.

    Part of the cost increase from Medicare for All would naturally come from covering those who are currently uninsured. But the proposed legislation would also expand coverage of specific benefits such as dental, vision and hearing, and greatly increase demand for health services that are already insured, through its stipulation that “no cost-sharing, including deductibles, coinsurance, copayments, or similar charges, be imposed on an individual for any benefits.”

    The more of a person’s health care is paid by insurance rather than out of pocket, the more health-care services he tends to buy, regardless of quality and effectiveness. Providing first-dollar coverage for a range of health-care services would therefore be a powerful force driving additional health-care spending. Although Medicare for All proponents believe the administrative efficiencies of single-payer insurance would reduce national health-care costs, my research found the opposite—specifically, that the added costs associated with increased coverage far surpass not only the savings attainable from lower administrative costs, but also the savings potentially gained from swapping brand name drugs for generics.

    Some have seized on a scenario in my estimates showing a slight decline in projected total public and private health expenditures under Medicare for All. But that decline, relative to current projections, relies on an assumption that Medicare for All would immediately and dramatically cut provider payment rates by roughly 40%. Without such cuts, Medicare for All would drive national health costs further upward, and the federal price tag would be $38 trillion during its first 10 years.

    Mine isn’t the first study to show that Medicare for All’s price tag would be enormous. Independent estimates from the Urban Institute, the Center for Health and Economy, and Emory scholar Kenneth Thorpe have reached similar conclusions.

    Medicare for All would place more than 15 times as much pressure on federal finances as did last year’s tax reforms. Before too many Americans become invested in the rhetorical vision of Medicare for All, there needs to be a serious national discussion about whether shouldering its vast cost is even remotely within the realm of practical possibility.

    Mr. Blahous holds a chair at the Mercatus Center at George Mason University and served as a public trustee for Social Security and Medicare from 2010-15. His new study is “The Costs of a Single-Payer Healthcare System.”

    Appeared in the August 2, 2018, print edition as 'Even Doubling Taxes Wouldn’t Pay for ‘Medicare for All’.'
     
  6. juicystream

    juicystream Contributing Member

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    Continue the good fight of trying to pretend costs would actually go up, when in fact they'd go down based on the study. It would be taxes instead of insurance premiums. You know, kind of like how the majority of Medicare is funded right now?
     
    JeffB, DonnyMost, Nook and 1 other person like this.
  7. Air Langhi

    Air Langhi Contributing Member

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    This isn't true. Obese and Smokers are cheaper to care for:

    https://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/05/health/05iht-obese.1.9748884.html
     
  8. Amiga

    Amiga 10 years ago...
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    They BOTH are going up, but Medicare is going up much slower than private ins. It's just not sustainable.

    I’m finding myself giving a thumb up to Blahous, for using accurate projection.

    40% is the author number (actually CBO) and the reason that’s chosen is because that’s how much more cost effective Medicare is than private ins today with a clear historic trend in their cost increase over the year. It’s as realistic a number as reasonable possible. My guess is it can even be lower with a larger base.

    The author focused on the government aspect, but ignore the private aspect. If it’s not remotely possible for m4a due to costs, what does that said about the more expensive private form of insurance ... more uninsured? Less coverage? Higher copay and premium? More of the same today except much worse? It's not a pretty picture.

    Cost argument is done. There are other points (for and against m4a) a lot more sense to argue about than costs. Cost is going to be way cheaper under M4A. This isn't a surprise. We knew this nearly a decade ago, and a study in 2016 shown similar result.
     
    #48 Amiga, Aug 2, 2018
    Last edited: Aug 2, 2018
  9. SamFisher

    SamFisher Contributing Member

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    And remember, the need to do "followup in the WSJ" was because the study was such an enormous flop that it was triumphantly touted by single payer enthusiasts nationwide (aka 63% of the country, but who's counting...)







    Great job, great effort, @Os Trigonum, Charles Blauhouse, Wall Street Journal, Koch Bros, Mercatus!
     
    JeffB likes this.
  10. juicystream

    juicystream Contributing Member

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    Invisible Fan likes this.
  11. Os Trigonum

    Os Trigonum Contributing Member
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    http://theglitteringeye.com/youre-going-to-need-a-bigger-plan/

    excerpt:

    For me here’s the real sticking point:

    Part of the cost increase from Medicare for All would naturally come from covering those who are currently uninsured. But the proposed legislation would also expand coverage of specific benefits such as dental, vision and hearing, and greatly increase demand for health services that are already insured, through its stipulation that “no cost-sharing, including deductibles, coinsurance, copayments, or similar charges, be imposed on an individual for any benefits.”


    The more of a person’s health care is paid by insurance rather than out of pocket, the more health-care services he tends to buy, regardless of quality and effectiveness. Providing first-dollar coverage for a range of health-care services would therefore be a powerful force driving additional health-care spending. Although Medicare for All proponents believe the administrative efficiencies of single-payer insurance would reduce national health-care costs, my research found the opposite—specifically, that the added costs associated with increased coverage far surpass not only the savings attainable from lower administrative costs, but also the savings potentially gained from swapping brand name drugs for generics.


    Some have seized on a scenario in my estimates showing a slight decline in projected total public and private health expenditures under Medicare for All. But that decline, relative to current projections, relies on an assumption that Medicare for All would immediately and dramatically cut provider payment rates by roughly 40%. Without such cuts, Medicare for All would drive national health costs further upward, and the federal price tag would be $38 trillion during its first 10 years.

    To the best of my knowledge no other plan in the world other than British National Health imposes such a stipulation. In France cost-sharing is about 10%, in Germany 16% (higher than here), and in Switzerland, the country with per capita health care spending closest to our own, about 30%. In other words we would be breaking completely new ground. Throw any assumptions based on the experience with social insurance in other countries out the window. It should also be noted that the costs of a bureaucracy do not scale linearly but more closely to n log n.​
     
  12. dobro1229

    dobro1229 Contributing Member

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    Well Trump fans should be cool with this then since they clearly aren’t fiscally conservative to say the least.

    Trump just put in to borrow the most against the deficit since 2008 when we were in a Great Recession. So guess you guys would be cool with Medicare for All then.
     
  13. REEKO_HTOWN

    REEKO_HTOWN I'm Rich Biiiiaaatch!

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    What you're recommending is called education. The Government doesn't care about education in their country. The military get 10X the money education does.
     
  14. Senator

    Senator Member

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    It's a real problem, but if you half military spending, that entire demographic isnt going to know what to do for money. The culture of a large part of America is war, survival instinct, and you need to find a way to replace those jobs. Same reason people cling to fossil fuels and make up lies to justify using them. We have to introduce the future before we can convince the present. If that makes sense.
     
    DFWRocket likes this.
  15. REEKO_HTOWN

    REEKO_HTOWN I'm Rich Biiiiaaatch!

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    Agreed. I think the only real solution is culling but I'm an crazy person like Thanos.
     
  16. DFWRocket

    DFWRocket Member

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    True. As an advocate for single-payer, I recently argued with another single-payer fan that we cannot suddenly switch to single-payer - It has to be a gradual switch because there are 3/4 of a million people working in the health insurance industry. A quick switch would have terrible economic results for them as well as companies who produce medical supplies and pharmaceuticals. After all, once you begin to say "we're no longer paying x-amount for those clips to hold the skin back during surgery," those companies will also have to reduce overhead (often employees) to make up for lost revenue. In this case, it is a trickle-down issue. Switching to single-payer will have to be a slow calculated move.
     
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  17. AleksandarN

    AleksandarN Member

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    Having M4A costs as stated cover dental and prescription pills. The reason why I ask because some countries don't have them covered in thier single payer system. Canada and Great Britain for one. So why not go by their coverage? Wouldn't 32 trillion cost figure go way down? Or is that some people on the right trying to be intellectually dishonest by stated that number
     
  18. Rocket River

    Rocket River Member

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    I read somewhere that it currently costs like 49 billion

    Rocket River.
     
  19. Amiga

    Amiga 10 years ago...
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    ACA with a public option to buy into Medicare could have been that transition. It can still be.
     
  20. dobro1229

    dobro1229 Contributing Member

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    It’s probably the likely outcome when an initial proposal from Warren/Sanders etc hit the House in 2021.

    They almost surely won’t hold a large majority in Congress so they’ll still need the votes of “moderates” who would prefer a more gradual step with less of a shock to the deficit.

    However they have to campaign on a specific plan. They can’t do what Hillary did in 16 being real squishy with her health care proposals. That being said, smart people in the know understand what has to happen in Congress that will impact what healthcare looks like when a final bill comes to the Senate to vote on.
     

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