The fight for fresh water, access to the Jordan River and that lake it feeds in between Jordan and Israel
http://www.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/meast/10/07/israel.allegiance.law/index.html israel is extremely cocky. do they not realize the region that surrounds them, essentially hates them and will do anything to destroy them, instead of fixing their relationships with their neighbors they alienate those who they are denying the right to exist essentially. if you are going to force these people to recognize the "democratic" state of israel than you need to allow them to have their own legitimate country free from israel's tyrannical antics. i'm leaning more and more anti-israeli as the year goes by
Israel does know that they are hated by their neighbors, they just don't particularly care. For the average Israeli, life is good. They have no reason not to continue with the course they have set. That is why these peace talks never go anywhere. Israel is negotiating from a position of strength. They are fine with the status quo, so they would be dumb to give up more than they are getting in return. The Palestinians are negotiating from a position of weakness, but they act like they are negotiating from a position of strength and have the power to dictate terms. The problem is, they are the ones that are dissatisfied with the status quo, so they are the ones that will need to move more in the negotiations if they want anything to happen. It is unlikely that the Palestinians end up with a better deal than the Barak offer that was turned down by Arafat. Israel can just change the facts on the ground without negotiation, so they are not going to give away things like the so called "Right of Return" in exchange for "peace". Time had an article recently about how the average citizen in Israel is happy with life the way it is. It can be found here.
That nonchalance by most Israelis is dangerous. However, from my own visits to Israel, I talked to several people who were more than aware of the need for peace in the region, so I'm not sure about Time's alarming poll numbers about widespread apathy to the issue. If there's one thing about human beings, they are the last animal you want to back into a corner. All the Intifadas carried out against Israelis has resulted in few Israeli deaths vs a lot more Palestinian deaths. Since the late 80s, Israel has suffered less than 2,000 civilian causalities. That may change now. Eventually, with the amount of anger and support for action against Israel in the region, something will happen in the future that will seriously affect the 7.5 million Israelis unless they don't sincerely negotiate. This short-sightedness must not last.
LOL, what is going to happen? The Palestinians have been backed into a corner for quite some time now. Israel has no need to negotiate, there is no motivation to get anything done, things are as stable as they've ever been (and it doesn't appear like its going to change in the long term either...regardless of how big a threat Iran is made out to be....neither country can/will do anything)
Am I hearing that Israel does not have to act ethical in negotiations, and that the only important thing is strength? I understand you probably view this as a "well it's not ideal, but that's how the world works" thing, but I assure you, there are only a few groups who share your view, namely the Israeli government, Fatah and Hamas. For Hamas and Fatah, "we are in a position of weakness and have much less to lose, so we would be stupid to accept a marginally better situation when we can just terrorize Israel forever." Is this what you want?
Israel needs more pressure to make the changes. It's clear that changing for the sake of morality and right and wrong doesn't appeal to the Israeli govt. So outside pressure needs to be brought in. They also need to get ahold of the settlers. One of them recently ran down two Palestinian boys. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-11516009
Everyone should act ethically in all of their endeavors. There is nothing unethical about going into the negotiation knowing that you are fine with the status quo, and thus that for every concession you give, you expect to get an equal or greater concession in return. It is the very basis of bargaining from a position of strength. I assure you, there are many that view things the way I do. They are called rational thinkers. Those who realize you don't get something for nothing, that there is no free lunch. The thing is, they don't really terrorize Israel, which is the point. They launch rockets, they suicide bomb, they talk a big game on al Jazeera; meanwhile the average Israeli is living the good life and is happy. They are no living in terror, because they know that the odds of being killed by a terrorist are less than the odds of being killed in a car accident. Think of it this way: Choice A for Israel is to keep all of the territory they control now, continue to build settlements whenever they want, and suffer the occasional terrorist attack that is largely ineffective in accomplishing any of the terrorists' goals. Choice B for Israel is to give away large swathes of territory, freeze and/or dismantle settlements, surrender strategic high ground locations, and MAYBE suffer fewer terrorist attacks that are largely ineffective. Which would you chose in their position? I would chose choice A. The only chance the Palestinians have of getting Israel not to choose choice A is to offer a choice C, which would offer some sort of trade-off for everything Israel gives up by not taking choice A.
Maybe we're not looking for peace at all? Maybe we enjoy stipulating that all U.S. military foreign aid must be spent on weapons produced in the United States? I doubt that Israel or the United States want to see peace in the region. Moneyed interests have such a huge influence on politicians like Obama and Netanyahu that it boggles the mind how these news articles can portray the two as adversarial. Like I've said before, partisan politics creates the perception that politicians have conflicting ideologies when in actuality they all work together for the benefit of special interests -- in this case, the military industrial complex.
Netanyahu offers to freeze HALF the settlement construction in return for Palestinian recognition of Israel as a Jewish State. It's official, Netanyahu is a douche. http://www.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/meast/10/11/israel.settlement.freeze/index.html
lol, except when the status quo oppresses 1.5 million palestinians. that's like saying i'm rich, i'm happy, f everyone else. and it has nothing to do with getting a free lunch, if anything the israelis are getting a free lunch. who gave them their country? who did they take it from? the arabs certainly didn't agree to giving up their homes and fleeing across the jordan river for their lives, only to risk even more destruction on the other side. choice a is israel continues to be selfish and keep all the land that they stole from palestine, or b, they give some of it back to appease both groups who just want a nation-state of their own. they are forcing these people to live in a jewish state or get out...like texas seceding to the confederacy, and you don't want to be a racist prick so you wanna stay in the union, but you have no choice you can either leave your home or be a confederate. not the greatest example, but i hope i'm making my point clearly. does it have to be all or nothing? we're dealing with people livelihoods here, why do the lives of israelis mean more than the lives of the arabs? and the only reason they are on strong ground is because of the inability for arab nations to unite without fking each other over. continue like this and iran, hamas, fatah, and hezbollah will all have a party on israels grave
Yeah this is getting annoying. I understand Israel's desire to give up as little as possible but these are absurd demands. Everyone knows that the Palestinians will eventually have to officially recognize Israel but the Israelis need to give up something in good faith. I just have a general feeling that the Israelis are going about this all wrong if they want to generate trust and cooperation with the Palestinians. It was only 50 years ago when a majority of Israeli Arabs were voting for Zionist parties in elections and Labor was forming coalition governments with the Arab parties instead of the religious right. Today its a complete reversal of that. Arabs in Israel either dont vote or vote for Arab parties and coalitions now never include the Arab parties. And whats annoying is that the Israelis have forgotten why relations with Israeli Arabs were so much better during the first years of Israel's history. Israel was an economic boom to the area and everyone (including Arabs) benefited. The Ottomans and other Arab states had never cared to develop the region and the new Jewish state was doing exactly that. Fast forward to today, where the West Bank (and Gaza when it was under Israeli control) receives very little economic aid. Investing in the West Bank with infrastructure, good education, jobs, etc.. is the way to generate good will. Take Indian Kashmir for example. There you have an even more hostile group of people that resents the Indian government yet through years of investment in infrastructure and education, you see less conflict (although its still not good). Kashmir today has the lowest poverty rate of any Indian state while remaining as a nearly autonomous state within India. Not saying I support a lot of the things India does there but there's a reason why it has become much less of a flashpoint than the Palestinian territories. And most importantly what bothers me about Israel is how shortsighted their thinking is. Israelis were constantly about Israel and yet they forget why Ahmadinajad is even in power. By all accounts Ahmadinajad has been a horrible president. He's ruined the Iranian economy and set Iran backwards in many ways. And yet his only trump card is his strong anti-Israeli rhetoric that is still popular. Yet if the Israelis make peace with the Palestinians that one trump card that idiots like Ahmadinajad goes away and public support for that type of regime diminishes even more.
Didn't you say somewhere that you wanted to visit Israel? After this post I'm not quite sure they will let you in. Hell, if a 14 year old Justin Beiber fan can backtrace your IP with his connections in the FCC and Europe.....you are in a world of trouble. :grin:
Just because I think their policy sucks doesnt mean I dont want to see the place. I'd visit North Korea and Iran too if I could.
