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[NBC News] People who worry about climate change have mental health problems

Discussion in 'BBS Hangout: Debate & Discussion' started by Os Trigonum, Dec 27, 2018.

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  1. Sweet Lou 4 2

    Sweet Lou 4 2 Contributing Member
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    If you have a Bayesian view of climate change, then you would understand that catastrophic change is going to occur in the next 50 years, it's just the range of how catastrophic it will be.

    Or do you not understand the math behind it?
     
    #21 Sweet Lou 4 2, Dec 28, 2018
  2. Os Trigonum

    Os Trigonum Contributing Member
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    I disagree with you
     
    #22 Os Trigonum, Dec 28, 2018
  3. Dubious

    Dubious Contributing Member

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    You disagree from the best peer reviewed scientific evidence available? This isn't the Dark Ages anymore.
     
    #23 Dubious, Dec 28, 2018
  4. bongman

    bongman Member

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    interpretation: I am free to create my own "alternative" facts and present it as truth
     
    #24 bongman, Dec 28, 2018
  5. bongman

    bongman Member

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    OP, if you are willing to buy the idea that climate change is causing folks to have mental problems, then you have put ALL religious folks (believe in that an apocalyptic event will occur) on the same boat. Are you willing to make this declaration?
     
    #25 bongman, Dec 28, 2018
  6. El_Conquistador

    El_Conquistador King of the D&D, The Legend, #1 Ranking
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    [Educational Post]
    The climate change movement at this point is very fatigued and I struggle to see how it generates enough political momentum to ever accomplish anything. Obama missed his chance in 2009 when he controlled Congress to get anything done. Was just a few votes away, but he couldn't persuade enough Democrats to vote for his bill. What a failed opportunity for him -- buy hey, he was great at reading speeches that others wrote off a teleprompter!

    Climate change policies are wrongheaded and frankly selfish. You have hundreds of millions of people in Africa and Asia who desperately need fossil fuels to lift their standards of living. To provide them with running water, with access to healthcare, with economic opportunity. All of these basics are DENIED because OECD liberals restrict access to fossil fuels and cut off avenues to provide affordable energy to the impoverished. It's a classic example of liberals wanting to do good, but actually doing great harm because of their idealistic and ignorant approach to issues.

    Everyone wants to protect the environment -- that is until they see what it costs to do so. Climate change policies fail any type of rational cost-benefit analysis. Scientists (who are massively conflicted and pressured to support global warming research) are but a single piece of the puzzle -- rational economic thought has to enter into the equation, and climate change policies are sadly way too expensive and don't justify the costs. And that's why people are opposed. Everyone wants to wash their hair...but no one will pay $1,000 per wash to do so, although frankly, there are days when my beautiful locks could justify it.

    GOOD DAY
     
    #26 El_Conquistador, Dec 28, 2018
  7. Os Trigonum

    Os Trigonum Contributing Member
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    #27 Os Trigonum, Dec 28, 2018
  8. bongman

    bongman Member

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    #28 bongman, Dec 28, 2018
  9. Os Trigonum

    Os Trigonum Contributing Member
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    I don't understand your question. I would however respond that proponents of scientism are religious. And in case you want to read up on what that might mean, here's a suggestion.

     
    #29 Os Trigonum, Dec 28, 2018
  10. Rashmon

    Rashmon Contributing Member

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    People who deny climate change have mental health problems.
     
    #30 Rashmon, Dec 28, 2018
  11. bongman

    bongman Member

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    The statement ...Climate change believers have mental problems because of their anxiety towards the end of the world. Other folks also believe that catasthropic events will also occur in the future.

    What makes the other demographic not able to cope with this? And if there is a mechanism that religious folks use to deal with this, why cant that be used for the ones who accept climate change as the truth?
     
    #31 bongman, Dec 28, 2018
  12. Os Trigonum

    Os Trigonum Contributing Member
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    fair enough. I'll try to respond.

    The thread title is a bit of a joke in its overgeneralization about "people who worry about climate change." The article is about excessive worry about climate change--so yes, those who worry excessively may in fact have a mental problem. Just as "the-end-is-near" type is properly understood and sometimes parodied as being "not all there," i.e., having a mental problem.

    the end is near.jpeg


    This is not to say that "all religious people have mental problems," which (correct me if I'm wrong) you seem to be suggesting naturally follows from . . . not exactly sure what it follows from, to be honest with you. But it does appear to me that you seem to be conflating "climate worriers" (the excessive kind) with "religious people" (ALL of them). Which would of course be false equivalency.

    here again I'm just not sure I'm following you. Not trying to be dense, I just don't see what you're driving at here.
     
    #32 Os Trigonum, Dec 28, 2018
  13. bongman

    bongman Member

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    The statement ...Climate change believers have mental problems because of their anxiety towards the end of the world. Other folks also believe that catasthropic events will also occur in the future.

    What makes the other demographic not able to cope with this? And if there is a mechanism that religious folks use to deal with this, why cant that be used for the ones who accept climate change as the truth?
    People have managed to cope with the idea with regards the end of the world for 2000 yrs. Why would all of a sudden, we lose that ability or why is this skill set lost by ONLY a certain demographic? You cannot have it both ways.

    It's either, everybody who believes in the end of world is mental or we have to make exceptions that only a certain group is susceptible this. If it is the latter, we will need evidence for that.
     
    #33 bongman, Dec 28, 2018
  14. Os Trigonum

    Os Trigonum Contributing Member
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    Again, people who believe in the end of the world MAY have mental problems, or they may not . . . they may simply be mistaken in their belief that the end is near. In all relevant respects they may be perfectly healthy, mentally healthy individuals . . . with one simple, silly, misguided or mistaken belief that they take seriously, but which nobody else (or few others) take seriously or should take seriously.

    Again, I think one can have mental problems and think the end is near, hear voices, hallucinate, have night terrors, whatever . . . But thinking the end is near is not by itself a sign of having mental problems.

    here again you've lost me

    no it's not, I emphatically deny this statement

    I don't know what you mean by "make exceptions" but I will interpret that to mean "make distinctions" . . . so yes, I make a distinction between the mentally ill "the end is near nut" on the one hand and those otherwise healthy individuals who for whatever reason believe epistemologically that "the end is near" or that "climate catastrophe is upon us." In both latter cases I believe these folks are simply mistaken in their beliefs.
     
    #34 Os Trigonum, Dec 28, 2018
  15. Sweet Lou 4 2

    Sweet Lou 4 2 Contributing Member
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    Other that posting books from Amazon which may or may not be germane, you don't really state what your position is and you offer no supporting evidence of anything. It just sounds like you are here to screw with people.
     
    #35 Sweet Lou 4 2, Dec 28, 2018
  16. Dubious

    Dubious Contributing Member

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    Did your cost/benefit analysis include the cost of relocating a billion people who live in low lying coastal areas? Healthcare costs of pertro-chemical pollution? The projected future benefits of innovative technologies? the relative cost of energy once the inevitable breakthroughs are made? Does it predict the effects of a higher CO2 climate on world agriculture? Does it predict changes in the Hydrologic cycle, droughts and flooding? How about the effect of mass migration if some area's become unsustainable? What about the costs of future military confrontations if resources become scarce?

    Because that would be a hell of study.
     
    #36 Dubious, Dec 28, 2018
  17. bongman

    bongman Member

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    So if some people may or may not have, how do we reach the conclusion that "climate change" was the causal agent for these mental issues?


    So what does the author or you mean by mental problems?

    So what is the difference between religious folks believing in end of the world and climate change believers? If you deny the statement, there has to be difference between the 2, wont you agree? What is it?


    You are not ok with the idea that all folks who believe in an apocalypse are mental and I have presented 2 groups who accepts this idea. You seem to imply that one is more likely to have mental problems than the other, why is the other group excempted or immune to anxiety issues?
     
    #37 bongman, Dec 28, 2018
  18. Os Trigonum

    Os Trigonum Contributing Member
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    My position is that I disagree that "catastrophic change is going to happen in the next 50 years."

    Moreover, my position is that there is no agreed-upon meaning of the term "catastrophic" in this or probably any other context. My position is that an evaluative term like "catastrophic" is a theory-laden concept that is inherently ambiguous, vague, and open.

    My position in other words is that "catastrophic" and "catastrophe" are not scientific terms; nor can they be stipulated for heuristic purposes to salvage them for scientific purposes.

    the idea that terms like "catastrophe," "catastrophic," "climate change" etc. are a matter of "math" is, well, in my view laughable. My position is that these terms cannot be understood either fully or in part within the framework of "math."

    If on the other hand you are referring to the mathematics of the idea of a "range" of catastrophe, then I would be willing to talk about that. Your meaning is unclear.

    The point about Bayesian thinking was to suggest that two or more individuals might agree on the same "facts" of the matter (e.g., "climate change is occurring") but then differ in their subjective probability estimates about the extent to which climate is changing and also about the policy question of what to do in response to said climate change. My position is that I believe there is ENORMOUS variability among scientists and policy makers on both (a) the science of predicted climate change and (b) the policy question of what to do in response.

    Thus I believe that statements about "the best peer reviewed scientific evidence available" and "scientific consensus" are mistaken and ill-informed. That is my position on those topics.
     
    #38 Os Trigonum, Dec 28, 2018
  19. Os Trigonum

    Os Trigonum Contributing Member
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    the cutting and pasting for responding will get more tedious from here on in, so I'll just try to respond to one or two of your points.

    "how do we reach the conclusion that "climate change" was the causal agent for these mental issues?" The point of the OP article was that there's evidence that climate change is keeping people up at night. In my opinion that's not really healthy.

    "So what does the author or you mean by mental problems?" again the thread title was a bit facetious; on the other hand, excessive, unhealthy worry about climate change probably is a "mental problem" in the sense that if someone is anxious to the point of verging on clinical depression and needing therapy and/or pharmaceuticals, then that would qualify in my book as a "mental problem." In saying that I make no further claim to expertise in psychotherapy, psychiatry, or the like. So hopefully we can just let that part of this drop. ;)

    "So what is the difference between religious folks believing in end of the world and climate change believers?" as far as comparing "religious folks" who believe in the end of the world and "(catastrophic) climate change believers", both sets of beliefs are irrational, as opposed to "indicative of mental problems." There is no rational basis for a belief in the end of the world, nor is there a rational basis for a belief in catastrophic climate change--and here I mean "catastrophic" climate change in the everyday sense of catastrophic being CLOSE to the end of the world. Both sets of beliefs in my view lack a sound, rational grounding. That doesn't mean that people holding those beliefs are mentally ill.

    hope this helps.
     
    #39 Os Trigonum, Dec 28, 2018
  20. Sweet Lou 4 2

    Sweet Lou 4 2 Contributing Member
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    Ok, so let's take out the word catastrophic and let me ask you what do you think is the most likely outcome we're facing on our current course? What's are the most likely outcomes? What kind of changes do you think are most probably on our current track?

    There's a range, but that range doesn't start anywhere close to 0 impact.
     
    #40 Sweet Lou 4 2, Dec 28, 2018
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