From the Chronicle: <I>"He's running to the table like he's Superman, like he's the president," Rockets guard Cuttino Mobley said. "Come on, man. That's a good game. You that anxious to get to the All-Star break? Don't take the game away from us like that. Terrible, man. That's terrible. Terrible. "Lamond Murray uses an elbow. That's a bad way to lose right there. Everybody's playing hard the whole game. People are enjoying the game right there. If it goes to overtime, go to overtime. You going on a trip or something? That's why they rushed that game? You going to the Bahamas? You've got a discount? That's terrible." </I> Fair enough, until... <I> Told that coach Rudy Tomjanovich had said a replay indicated the last call was correct, Mobley stood by his comments. "Stop rushing the game, count the bucket, let's go into overtime, best man wins, simple as that," Mobley said. "That still don't stop the play before of Lamond Murray. You throw an elbow right to the ribs of Oscar Torres. We're up one." </I> Is he actually saying the refs should have purposely let a late bucket go just because it was a fun game and so the Rockets would have had a chance to win? Have we started actually whining about correct calls too now?
The guys frustrated. I'm happy he's complaining. I'd be pissed off too after the way the refs were calling the last quarter of last nights game. No they should'nt have let that last shot go but frustration at the refs is justified.
What I think Cuttino is saying is that in his opinion, the Rockets were due a "payback" call for the elbow to Oscar Torres. Is it strictly by the rules? No. Does it happen all the time in professional sports? Sure. If we are to play the "what if" game, I wonder if there would have been a big stink from the Cleveland folks if they had counted Franchise's bucket.
Sounds like he was having a little fun, and just wanted the game to go to OT. Mobes was money all night, and just wanted his hot hand to beat the Cavs in OT.
That's some pretty good whining, Rockets got robe. The game was ours, but they robe us, and that sucks!
<i>robe</i> n. <b>1.</b>A long loose flowing outer garment, especially: <b>(a)</b>An official garment worn on formal occasions to show office or rank, as by a judge or high church official. <b>(b)</b>An academic gown. <b>(c)</b>A dressing gown or bathrobe. <b>2.</b>robes Clothes; apparel. <b>3.</b>A blanket or covering made of material, such as fur or cloth: <i>a lap robe.</i>
I agree with what he is saying, but if our guards would have played even 5 minutes of defense on Clevlands guards we would have won. How many open shots did Miller and Person get? WIDE OPEN? DaDakota
That's something that I always wrestle with, myself. What do the rest of you guys think? If the refs know they blew a call, do you guys mind them making up for it the next trip down the court? Generally, I think they shouldn't because games have a way of evening themselves out anyway. And besides, teams play with the expectations formed by the last trip down the court. But when it changes a game... it's tough. Like, if Francis had 5 fouls... and picked up a 6th on a bad call... let's just say I wouldn't mind the same treatment for Kobe Bryant to even the score (if we were playing the Lakers ).
<B>That's something that I always wrestle with, myself. What do the rest of you guys think? If the refs know they blew a call, do you guys mind them making up for it the next trip down the court? </B> I think that's absolutely terrible and unacceptable. You call fouls you see -- that's it. If you miss some, so be it. When you start trying to do make-up calls and "fixing mistakes" then everything comes apart. It's not Cleveland's fault if the refs don't call a particular foul, and they shouldn't be penalized for no reason on another play because a ref feels bad. Personally, I don't think makeup calls really exist very much. If you look at the number of times there's just one bad call instead of two, I think its just random chance when there are two bad calls (one favoring each team). Most of the time you'll just see one, and nothing right after that. Of course, every time two bad calls happen, everyone says it's a makeup call, but the more likely explanation is that it was just two bad calls. I think it's ridiculous that our players have gone from b****ing and whining about bad calls to b****ing and whining about good calls just because they went against us.
I don't know if you can say it was a "good" call. Thanks to the replay, you can see that it was the "right" call, but that doesn't mean the ref should have decided it. In my opinion, the ref had no idea that it was the right call at the time, he just guessed. Just because the replay shows he was right, doesn't mean he should have made the call. It was a toss-up call, so by him blowing his whistle, he in effect decided the game. When a ref blows his whistle on a close call like that at the end of a game, regardless of whether he happens to be right, he's taking the game out of the players' hands. Maybe that's what Mobley is talking about.
Obviously you want the players to quit b****ing about the calls. Me too. But do you think Mobley's justified in his frustration? I think so definately. I was b****ing about the calls to my roomate for a good 30 minutes or so after the game last night and I'm still b****ing. I also think the players are doing their job when they lobby the refs during the game. I like seeing Steve or Cat pleading their case to the refs. Even Cato. As long as it doesn't cross the line where the refs take their heads completely out of the game. Last night seemed a good example of how this team has matured over the year. Once upon a time they would have been overrun in the fourth because they would have become distracted by the horrible officiating. But last night I saw them stay focused and try to play through the BS while trying to get the refs to give them a break which they never did. Even though they didn't win, I really liked what I saw in the fourth quarter as far as their concentration was concerned.
Terrific post! I should have thought of that . That's true of so many things. A prediction isn't bad, just because it doesn't come true. And a call isn't good, just because it turns out to have been correct. So do you think that refs should generally give the benefit of the doubt to whatever out-come would most let the players decide the game? I don't know about that. All too often it just seems as if make-up calls occur on the very next possession. I generally don't mind officiiating that much. But I do think it's odd that two calls I disagree with happen so often consecutively.
<B>When a ref blows his whistle on a close call like that at the end of a game, regardless of whether he happens to be right, he's taking the game out of the players' hands. </B> But the ref HAS to make a call at the end of the game. He has to call the shot either good or not-good. He got the thing right, yet Mobley's complaining that he should have called it good. Why? <B>he's taking the game out of the players' hands.</B> How so? If he had called the shot good, he would have taken the game out of the hands of the defense, who did their job and prevented Francis from getting a shot off in time. <B>Obviously you want the players to quit b****ing about the calls. Me too. But do you think Mobley's justified in his frustration? I think so definately. </B> I'm a big believer that calls balance out of the course of 99% of the games. Sure, there might have been some bad calls out there, but I'm sure there were some that favored us too. We just don't notice them because we're just happy to get foul calls or what not. For example, I totally agree with Utah's players about all those phantom calls on Francis. I still think Utah was idiotic for b****ing about it after the game. <B>I also think the players are doing their job when they lobby the refs during the game. I like seeing Steve or Cat pleading their case to the refs. Even Cato. As long as it doesn't cross the line where the refs take their heads completely out of the game. </B> I agree with this. I have no problem with the lobbying. However, our guards do it on virtually every play. That costs them credibility. For example, if I was a ref and Griffin b****es about a call, you can be sure he's probably telling the truth. If Francis or Mobley does, I would just ignore them because they do it on virtually every call. That said, I still don't think it influences refs into making make up calls. I do like when people point out what another player is doing, though, (for example, pulling on an off-arm, etc) because the ref might notice that more the next time and make the call. But our guards don't do that, they just say "come on, i didn't foul him!!" or something along those lines. <B>Last night seemed a good example of how this team has matured over the year. Once upon a time they would have been overrun in the fourth because they would have become distracted by the horrible officiating.</B> Maybe so, but we've had 4th quarter problems for the last 3 years (outside of the nice run where we made the 10-20 pt 4thQ comebacks last year). We've played so many close games, you'd think we'd be good at end-of-game situations, but we still lose them more than not, I think.
Major, i was watching the Portland/minnesota game last night and an obvious makeup call occured. Kemp made a spinning move in the lane and blatantly elbowed Joe Smith as he turned. Smith took the elbow and the charge, but the ref called it a blocking foul. The announcers were saying what an awful call it was, and when Portland inbounded, the same ref immediately called an illegal screen on Kemp. This seems to occur quite a bit when a ref blatantly misses a call.
<B>Major, i was watching the Portland/minnesota game last night and an obvious makeup call occured. Kemp made a spinning move in the lane and blatantly elbowed Joe Smith as he turned. Smith took the elbow and the charge, but the ref called it a blocking foul. The announcers were saying what an awful call it was, and when Portland inbounded, the same ref immediately called an illegal screen on Kemp. This seems to occur quite a bit when a ref blatantly misses a call.</B> Here's my theory: Suppose 1 in 8 calls is a "bad call" or "missed call". Then if, every 8 times there is a bad call, there was 1 "makeup" call, that's simply random chance. I don't think that's too much out of the norm. Most of the time, when I see a bad call, I don't see another opposite bad call immediately after it. That tells me that the makeup calls are mostly statistical anomolies. Sure, they may happen here or there, but I don't think they happen very often at all, and when they do, they may or may not even be intentional... and I believe those refs that do things like on purpose that should be dumped. Also, I think it's important to consider that if makeup calls were a common occurrance, players wouldn't b**** so much about bad calls because they would know it's going to get taken care of.
Yeah I do. The refs usually swallow their whistles in the closing seconds of a game. The players generally expect them to do so. If you put it that way, he has to make a call on every play then, having to decide whether there was a foul or not. If he holds onto his whistle at the end of the game, he hasn't really made a decision, he's just let the game end. Obviously he made the right call, but I think it was probably a bad decision in retrospect (obviously he didn't have time to think much about it, which is why this is pure hindsight, hence the term "retrospect"), because it was a situation that happened so fast, that he couldn't possibly have known it was the correct call at the time. This is a situation that would have never been overturned on an instant replay either way. In that case, I think you let the players decide the outcome. So players can't complain over a call that was the right call? It was a judgement call. Just because he ended up being right doesn't mean he used good judgement. He doesn't call the shot good, he just doesn't make a call. Just like if there might have been a foul on the final play, and the ref doesn't call it, he's not really making a call, he's just letting it go. But nobody on the court knew time was up, so nobody stopped playing, therefore the game was still in the hands of those that were playing. The defense's job didn't have to end when the ref decided it did. The defense's job was not to let Francis get a shot off, and they failed at that. It's not like the defense would have acted differently had the ref not blown his whistle.
<B>If you put it that way, he has to make a call on every play then, having to decide whether there was a foul or not. </B> But fouls are judgement calls. There is contact allowed on every play, and a ref's job is to determine if the contact involved goes beyond what is allowed. There's no definite wrong or right in most of those instances where a ref lets things go. In the case of a clock issue, there is a right and wrong call. Yes, the ref has to use his judgement, but ultimately there is a correct and incorrect call, and the ref's job is try to get that call correct. <B>The defense's job was not to let Francis get a shot off, and they failed at that.</B> I disagree. I think the defense's job is to prevent Francis from getting a shot off before the clock expires, and they did exactly that. They could care less if he gets a shot off late. <B>It's not like the defense would have acted differently had the ref not blown his whistle.</B> So if Francis had shot the ball 0.2 seconds after the clock ran out, should that have been allowed? What about 0.5? What about 1 second after? Where is the cutoff, and why is one OK and the other not OK? I still don't see why the defense should be expected to go do their job beyond the end of the game.
What everybody's forgetting is that had they counted the shot, they still would've looked at the tape, rightly so. The players decided the game, the Cavs defense didn't let Steve get the shot off in time, enough said.
