Im fine w dream too, but the things jordan woulda brought to houston, the lore, the movies, the commercials, the legendary SHOES, the 6 possibly 8 straight championships, all based in htown.......sigh im jus sayin...
There is no telling if Jordan would have become the same player if he had gone to a good Rockets team early in his career. There's also no way to know how many rings Hakeem would have won if he had spent most of his career with a hall of fame caliber sidekick like MJ did. What makes you think all of that would have happened if MJ was in Houston. Ok, the commercials and shoes probably would have. But MJ didn't win those championships alone. He didn't win them when he had bad teammates. There's no telling when or if he would have won them in Houston.
Joe Dumars = Ron Artest (In their defensive prime) These players only looked inferior in comparison. Also, even playing pick up basketball... it is a lot easier to guard someone with your hand attached to their waiste (hand check). That said, IDK of any ELITE 2 guards that come to mind in the past decade. By Elite I mean scoring champ/DPoY Elite. TMac was an elite scorer, but not elite defender. Ginobili same. Iverson in his prime maybe, but very undersized.
Don't Know about you guys, but the first jersey I ever bought was The Black MJ Bulls Jersey. I saw all his home games on the chicago chanel. Man I miss his presence on the court.
I did mention Clyde and Reggie. Go read the post again, they were the first two mentioned. You're right that he had the quickest first step in the game, but the guys I mentioned were downright slow. Nick Anderson was a spot up shooter, not to mention how un-clutch he was (4 missed free throws anybody?). Who has Kobe had to face? Do you watch basketball? AI, A healthy grant hill, vince carter, t-mac, ray allen, payton, eddie jones, antawn jamison, paul pierce, sprewell, jalen rose, etc. more recently: melo, arenas, lebron, wade, redd, joe johnson, pierce, rip hamilton, ginobli Look up stats yourself and check to see the number of sg's and sf's in the league averaging over 20 ppg verses the number of sg's and sf's doing that today. Jordan transformed the NBA into a guard focused league. Joe Dumars = Ron Artest (In their defensive prime) I'll give you the Joe Dumars comparison...in fact, I think Dumars was a better defender than Artest; Artests defensive prowess was as much a product of marketing lore as it was his actual defense. Not saying he was bad, its just that his defensive talent was overstated. As for who Kobe's had to face, look above. Look, I'm not fond of Kobe and despised MJ throughout the 90's, and I'm not saying Kobe is better than MJ. All I've said is that Kobe faced stiffer competition at his position and if you cant see that, we'll just have to agree to disagree.
So with Kobe we include PG and SF (and PF in the case of Jamison) as his competition but with Jordan it's strictly SG? That doesn't sound right. Does that mean I get to include Magic Johnson, Larry Bird, Dominique Wilkins, Bernard King, Kevin Johnson etc in my list of Jordan's competition? And sorry about missing Clyde and Reggie in your first post. Also, Jordan didn't turn the league into a guard focused one (how he would do that is beyond me). The rule changes did. They made average players look like stars. I also find it weird how you casually mention a guy like Mitch Richmond as if he was second rate and then use guys like Michael Redd, Joe Johnson, Sprewell, Jalen Rose and Eddie Jones as examples of the prime competition Kobe has faced in the league.
i always thought the rule changes were b/c of mj. i dont know how anyone can believe mj isn't responsible for changing the nba. he came in and proved that a guard could be dominant. mj took it to everyone. didn't matter how big or small you were.
The point was that the LEAGUE changed the rules and those rules made it easier for perimeter players. The post I was responding to somehow made it sound like because of MJ the quality of perimeter players is somehow stronger than it used to be. My point is that the rules make them look stronger than they would have been by the old rules.
sorry. i didn't take the time to go back and read the posts. but i concur. the league was so desperate for another mj (they still are). i think VC or Tmac could've easily been that if they had the work ethic and drive. i really thought VC would become the GOAT. little did i know...
I'm firmly convinced that if there is a next Jordan he will be a guy nobody suspects to be the next Jordan...kinda like Jordan was. So far, Wade is the closest I've seen as far as athleticism and fearlessness at the rim but even he is a very poor man's MJ. Kobe, of course is the closest in terms of skills but I think even in his prime he wasn't near the athlete Jordan was. Combine those two guys and give them Otis Thorpe's hands and you might have the next MJ.
MJ won his first title in 91' vs. the Lakers, but Magic retired after that season and the rest of the lakers were on their last leg. Bird retired after the 92' season. King played one season after 91' and only averaged 7ppg that season. I'll grant you Dominique and KJ. The point being, the bulk of MJ's career (and his championship seasons) was not spent playing against the majority of the guys you named. eh, it happens. No worries. Whatever the case is, the league changed making the position more competitive. I think its easy to argue that it was a combination of rule changes along with a generation of youth who felt like they could be the next MJ aspiring for greatness. Most of the SG's in the league today cite MJ as their hero growing up. I'll give you Sprewell....I never liked his game that much. But honestly, Michael Redd and Joe Johnson are significantly better players than Mitch Richmond ever was. I live in DC and when I say that I've seen Mitch play, trust me. He was slightly above mediocre and his game is nowhere close to either of theirs (though who knows how Redd will fare after his latest surgery). As for Eddie Jones, its debatable. I'd argue that in his 1-2 year prime he was quite a talent. Very fluid, solid defender, great stroke. If you want to say he's not that great, I wont argue.
It gives me chills and brings back a bushel of memories ..... MJ and Dream are right there as far as I'm concerned. And yes, many forget how good Mike was. That said, if I'm picking first ..........Give me Magic.
It's funny but you missed mentioning one of the best defensive players of the era who is coaching right here with the Rockets-T.R. Dunn. Dunn would have made Kobe cry. Besides, Kobe has never faced the likes of the Pistons' Bad Boys or even the Pat Riley Knicks. Those guys would have eaten Kobe for lunch, whereas Jordan ran them all out of the gym. The players you mentioned that Kobe faced like Payton and Grant Hill were at their primes when they faced Jordan. As great as they were Jordan kicked their behinds too. Kobe faced Payton and Hill who were mere shadows of themselves. None of the current SG's, including James if you wish to include him, would have even come close to stopping Jordan then. Dream on but look at the vids again so you will have an idea of what the current players would have faced in Jordan at his prime. One other thing you may want to know about Jordan, when he entered any arena, home or away, he created an incredible buzz, electricity that you may never feel again in your lifetime, and a sense of anticipation that you will never ever feel with any other basketball player other than, maybe, Magic Johnson. Just some piece of advice, stop the Jordan/Kobe comparison, it is not even close.
I agree and disagree on few things. 1) Mitch Richmond - Totally disagree. I saw the guy play in Golden State and Sacramento, and he was the real deal. You picked the worst period of his career to use the argument that he was a mediocre player...in Washington, he was a 34-35 year old guard who battled injuries. In his prime, his hang time (and dunking ability) and slashing ability trumps Reggie Miller's and Michael Redd's by a good four mile. He was a superior athlete and dribbler to both of them, while also a just as quality long range shooter. I'm not even going to touch defense, because Richmond would win with an unquestioned blowout. Another argument in his favor is that he never had the talent around him, like Miller, Redd, or Johnson. Also, I know this going to sound sacrilege to some people, but Reggie Miller is rated so high for his playoff heroics which does count. But when you look at how he did season through season vs. Mitch Richmond, I'd have say Richmond was the better player. These are his career shooting percentages: FG%: .455 3FG%: .388 Miller's career shooting percentages: FG%: .471 3FG%: .395 Redd's career shooting percentages: FG%: .449 3FG%: .384 J.Johnson's career shooting percentages: FG% .443 3FG%: .373 Miller: Even in the video below, you had some NBA players and analysts (Tim Hardaway and Danny Ainge) say that he was the 2nd best shooting guard in the game at the time. <object width="480" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/EuXs8KMFJ58&hl=en_US&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/EuXs8KMFJ58&hl=en_US&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="480" height="385"></embed></object> 2) Michael Jordan never playing against superior competition. You've got the legends on the list who played on the wing, like Bird, Barkley, and Magic. Then, good scorers, like Adrian Dantley, Bernard King, Dominique Wilkins, and Drexler. Walter Davis (80s) Reggie Miller (90s-00s) Mitch Richmond (80s-90s) Latrell Sprewell (90s - 00s) Jerry Stackhouse (90s-00s) Allan Houston (90s) Penny Hardaway (90s), who was matched up Jordan at times. Reggie Theus (80s) Isiah Rider (90s) Rolando Blackman (80s) Steve Smith (90s-00s) Jim Jackson (90s - 00s) Eddie Jones (90s-00s) Dan Majerle (90s) Jeff Malone (80s-90s) Jeff Hornacek (80s-90s) Ricky Pierce (80s-90s) Forwards Glenn Robinson (90s) Jamal Mashburn (90s) Chris Mullin (80s-90s) Reggie Lewis (late 80s - early 90s) Cedric Ceballos (90s) Chuck Person (80s -90s) Sean Elliot (90s) Dennis Rodman in Detroit Let's give you that argument for the sake of question, he played against much inferior competition, but . . . as I remembered. Didn't a nearly 40 Michael Jordan play as recently as 2003, when several players, like Kobe; Iverson; T-Mac; Pierce; Carter; Ray Allen; and etc where either in or entering their prime years, while MJ was probably at the worst point in his career that he ever been. For a minute, just look at some of the games he had head to head against those players. Moreover, look at what MJ's scoring totals and field goal percentage was in those two years against teams over .500 and/or teams that were ranked top 10 defensively. It was also in one of the seasons, where MJ actually was putting up better numbers (scoring/shooting percentages) against .500 competition than Kobe was. During 01-02 season, MJ was also over 25 ppg at the all-star break through 46 games, as he was injured for a good stretch in the second half of season. http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jordami01/splits/2002/ http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jordami01/gamelog/2002/ http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jordami01/gamelog/2003/ http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jordami01/splits/2003/ I could conclude he has played against modern NBA players and done well, and even at times dominated. Best team in East at the time (and best defensive team) <object width="480" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/4TkvX356cpQ&hl=en_US&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/4TkvX356cpQ&hl=en_US&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="480" height="385"></embed></object> <object width="480" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/EhPsuzUZ69U&hl=en_US&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/EhPsuzUZ69U&hl=en_US&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="480" height="385"></embed></object>
I would also like to add that Kobe doesn't have to face all those 7 footers who camped under the basket back in the days.
Couldn't agree more,Richmond was a total stud. He was the original version of Duane Wade. Richmond had been in the league 10 years already before he got to Washington. Neither Johnson or Redd is the elite goto scorer that Richmond was. Again agree. Let me add a few more: Dale Ellis Dennis Johnson Alvin Robertson Jeff Malone Byron Scott George Gervin Sidney Moncrief - Both guys were still playing at an all-star level Jordan's first few years in the league.
Melo, LBJ, and Pierce are Elite, but they are not 2 guards. Just as in Jordan's era, you have a couple of ELITE HOF types, then the rest are borderline all-stars. Drexler>>>>Arenas, Reggie Miller>>Rip Hamilton, Mitch Richmond = Joe Johnson (production wise, not body wise)... etc. But your point is taken, the guards appear to be better but just because they can "score" doesn't mean they are better. And that doesn't make it hard for Kobe. But to me it could be the exact same thing as in the 90's.... The 2 guards today don't look that good because Kobe is just so much better than all of them.
Im going to get flamed but I dont mind: I dont think Jordan had won the championship in '94, if you replace him with Hakeem (Jordan playing in Houston)
I'm going to attempt to respond to multiple replies by tackling the major issues that were brought up. 1) Random barrage of older players who were 'amazing' playing against MJ. T.R. Dunn? Reggie Theus? Hornacek? Seriously, most of those names are non-starters as far as I'm concerned. You cant honestly bring up most of these guys seriously. Name one noteworthy matchup of them vs. Jordan? Hornacek didnt even cover jordan when they played....Russel did!!! Admittedly, I didnt really get into watching and following basketball closely until 91... 2) Mitch Richmond- almost every team he played on sucked. The majority of his career was spent on teams below .500...How many games of relevance did he ever have to play against MJ? Note that although the argument has been brought up that Kobe played against certain players I mentioned towards the end of their careers, but then those same people proceed to make huge lists of people who were at the end of their careers when MJ was winning championships. Consistency people, please. I'm a big proponent of judging success relative to the obstacles needed to gain that success. In my mind, Hakeem is greater than the other centers in this era (ie Shaq, Howard) because he faced talented centers in their prime on a regular basis. Shaq's main matchups were scrubs like Divac, Sabonas and Scott Pollard who couldnt matchup with his size. It's not that I think Jordan was worse than Kobe, but I think that there's always a sense of nostalgia that settles in where people want to aggrandize accomplishments of past players, for whatever reason. If you're one of them, great. If not, then let's have an honest discussion about player talent and accomplishments. Kobe has benefitted from superior talent vs. his predecessors and didnt win a championship the years following Shaq's departure. He doesnt have the same overall skillset that Jordan had. But Jordan benefitted from a talented Pippen (as opposed to the garbage he played with us) as well, and when Jordan retired the Bulls were still competitive. Both seasons they made the eastern conference semis, losing to the team that made the championship in a hard fought series. My entire point of all of this is to say that the gap between Kobe and Jordan isnt as high as some would like to make it seem. Both are and have been GREAT. But one of the factors that contributes to the belief that they were comporable is the fact that Kobe played against superior talent in the NBA at the SG/SF position on a nightly basis. As for Melo, LBJ, and Pierce not being 2 gaurds, they both face Kobe and matchup against one another in head-to-head matchups.
