[Lowe Post] Howard Beck "leaning hard" Giannis, Lowe at a standstill

I want Harden to win it but the narrative lately has made me feel Giannis will win it.

 

Question: If Harden was putting up the exact same numbers, but doing it playing only 33 minutes a game, would you say that makes his case stronger, weaker, or no difference?

 

We can only guess if efficiency and production remain with more minutes with Giannis. I see where you are going. But it doesnt change my mind in the slightest that Bud by an overwhelming factor is the key to the improvement of the Bucks. Goldsberry nails it.

 

If Harden was putting up Hardens same numbers at 33minutes instead of 37?

Well fuucking Harden because it would be even more historic then what Harden is currently doing which is also fuucking historic.

But if you mean Harden putting up giannis starliner at 33mpg, and vice versa with giannis putting up Harden at 37mpg. Then Giannis, because he would be the better player with the historic statline.

Do you want another per minute basis comparison?

You keep bringing up this minutes debate as if Harden isnt outperforming him in a comparable minutes debate.

Even dropping Harden from 37 to 36 and bumping giannis from 33 to 36, harden still outclasses him.

It makes it "prettier and closer" but still shows Harden superior.

 

Front page of reddit. Let’s get Harden a wholesome meme.

 

https://nbamath.com/2018-19-nba-tpa/

Harden still with the huge lead in tpa.

 

That is unfair to the freak, whose numbers has been increasing across the board year over year, even before Bud took over. He won MIP a few seasons ago, is evidence of his improvement.

We saw what Bud did in Atlanta, and he is no miracle worker. The way some are toting him is like if he is Riley, Phil or Pop, which is hilarious.

The biggest reasons for the bucks success imo is
- first the freak (for being dominant enough to warrant building the team around him),
- a close second is Horst (for assembling the complimentary roster around the freak, e.g. shooting big men in Lopez, Mirotic, and İlyasova),
- then Bud for making the best of the roster (particularly defensively).

I would even give Horst first if he played a significant role in the drafting of Giannis.

 

Interesting answer. It sounds like you agree that looking only at per game numbers and ignoring minutes played in this discussion is not totally fair, since you responded that Harden’s performance would be “even more historic” if he had the same stat line but at 33 minutes a game.

If you’re willing to go so far as to take into consideration what they are doing on a per minute or per possession basis, then there are a variety of metrics out there — some lean Harden, some lean Giannis.

Harden vs Giannis
PTS/75: 35.9 vs 29.2
PER: 30.2 vs 30.6
BPM: 11.4 vs 10.8
WS/48: .243 vs .292
PIE: 19.7 vs 21.5
RPM: 6.9 vs 6.1
PIPM: 4.7 vs 7.1

 

I think because this is such an even race from an advanced statistical standpoint, I think team wins come into play and the Bucks might just win 60+. That should give Giannis the edge.

 

I've looked at the per minute comps, and harden is a class above.

It's the only argument left for giannis that's walls havent been broken down.

Do me a favor and define value?

Then define value within a team.

Then define that teams success dependent upon said value.

Giannis doesnt play as many minutes because he cant.

When he has in the past, his efficiency and effectiveness is severely downgraded compared to this year. That's just no for debate within the numbers.

Having a better team doesnt make a player more valuable.

Most valuable "player" is a singular award.

I have to keep hearing you attribute giannis to the bucks success when it is obviously coach buds doing.

You choose to ignore that in order to take this contrarian angle, just like you do when ignoring the melo effect.

 

Before I answer, I would like you to first explain your first sentence that Harden is a class above based on per minute comps.

 

Do you think Giannis is better than Harden?

 

I can’t say. They are too different in what they do for me to answer the question with any certainty. You would have to rephrase it in a more specific way.

 

You have to ask yourself how the Bucks can win as many games as they can if they don't need Giannis to play heavy minutes. Perhaps he isn't as valuable? Lets ponder that.

That aside......

No, Bud is a miracle worker. It is on display. Biggest reason for success is tied directly to Bud. You can credit the GM for Lopez. Miritoc was a nice "value add" addition but he hasn't done anything yet. Ersan was a nice addition but lets be real about his true impact. Not much.

Giannis has played slightly better than last year as evidenced by a slight uptick in rebounds. And mostly because he is being used the *right way.*

Everything dovetails to coach Bud. Offensive, Defense, how the team plays. Goldsberry lays it all out. It is laughably obvious.

 

LOL. You have no problem voicing your opinion on everything else but on this simple question you can’t say?!?

Admit you are a parser. And you have an agenda against Harden.

 

- Giannis being used the right way? Giannis is like Shaq - there is only one way to use him!

- 3pts made? Not surpising when they are 2nd in 3pts attempted but in truth are 11th in 3pt% with 35.5% (same as last season). They are simply attempting more 3s like most other teams in the league. The acquisition of Lopez and Ilyasova (3pts shooting big men) increases the spacing on the floor making it easier for Giannis to work in the interior.

We saw what Bud did with Altanta, he cant become a miracle worker overnight. He would be a miracle worker if he was doing something special that other good coaches couldn't achieve with the same roster.

The reason why Bucks looks so much better is not cos Bud is that good but that Kidd was that bad!

 

If it’s such a simple question, there wouldn’t be such divergent opinion on who the “better player” is among fans, players, and people in the media.

Turns out a question that is easy to ask is not necessarily easy to answer (go figure). Both players are great and they impact the game in different ways. Giannis is a superior finisher and overall defender. Harden is a superior shooter and shot creator.

No agenda. I frequently defend Harden when he’s getting unfairly trashed on social media or other b-ball forums. And I’ll do the same for great players on here who I think are not getting their due credit.

 

A year ago, the Bucks were +2.8 per 100poss with Giannis on the floor. This year, they are +12.3.

The argument here I see over and over again is that Giannis isn’t that much better, so he can’t be credited for that jump with him on the floor.

The “he’s not much better” narrative is of course flawed as an explainer for his on-court improvement in team performance. To rate his on-court performance, look at what he’s doing on a per 100 possession basis. And when you do that, the improvement is apparent. +2.5 points, +2 assists, +4.2 rebounds, +4.5% true shooting.

Of course Coach Bud has to be given credit for putting in place a system that makes the Bucks so much better, but that doesn’t change the fact that Giannis is the centerpiece of that system. Just like when MDA came over a three years ago and improved us from a 41 win team to a 55 win team. MDA deserves COTY honors for overhauling how we play and maximizing Harden’s talents, but that didn’t take away from the fact that Harden was the engine of the system and deserved full credit for fulfilling that role.

 

The team record situation, I just hate it. Just compare the West to the East and you can see what the difference is. Not to mention Bucks have the easiest schedule of the NBA this year. I know that's not their fault but I'm just saying.

 

Kidd is that bad. And Bud is that good. Both can be true. Yes, we saw what Bud did in Atlanta. He optimized the team and took it to another level. And he is doing it with the Bucks as well. It is undeniable.