If you think an Acura..err..Honda or a Lexus..err..Toyota drive like a BMW, then that just shows how much you know about cars, or how little experience you have had. Hey, by all means, stick to your rebadged Camry or Accord, even if it will get you 10k more miles over a 10-year period than a BMW would. I guess we all have differing tastes, so it's a good thing that we have an enormous selection of vehicles as consumers.
To the original poster, If your friend doesn't mind purchasing a 02 325. Im sure he could find one for 20-24k with under 45k miles. I would suggest what most people did on this board and purchase one with a warranty intact. My little car review.... I knew bmw's were good vehicles, but I never "understood" why until I purchased one. I too was skeptical of their quality/reliability and wasnt that impressed the first time I drove it. The more I drove the 02 bmw and my brothers 04 honda accord side by side, it became appearant why bmws are great. First of all, bmw quality is great. The car has NO rattles or squeeks. Thats something I cant say about the previous 5 hondas in the family. Bmw reliability, is a hit and miss. Some people never have problems while others have alot of problems and some just have some problems. The only good thing about honda/toyota is their reliability is consistant. I never had any reliability issues with any honda/toyota my family has owned. Why used? Like someone mentioned earlier, cars are a terrible investment. I used to always buy new, but after trading in my vehicle every 3-4 years. I was sick of throwing my money out of the window. I started looking at the vehicles I wanted used and bought one when I found a great deal. Ill drive it a year and sell it for more money or slightly less than what I purchased the vehicle for. This way, I drive the vehicle I want and I minimize my depretiation/loss. The bmw might be the first vehicle I bought used that im going to keep. Im sure most of you people here are guys right? Well I cant speak for most of you, but im sure some of you guys are technology savvy like me and love tinkering with the little extra features/knobs. The E46 model debuted back in 99 with all these little features that acura/lexus started implementing recently. When magazines compare vehicles in the 35k-40k range their always compared to the bmw 3 series. Why is that? Its because the 3 series is king in that department. Just my two cents...
well, if you wanted to be fair to me, you'd notice my post is responding to pimp who was talking about "Performance, safety, comfort, ergonomics". Granted performance is included in what we were talking about, but we were also talking about safety, comfort, ergonomics. Plus, I never claimed an Acura/Lexus drives like BMW.
What price range is the new Lexus IS 350 supposed to be in? I heard that will be a pretty sweet ride.
I don't think you can really show-off in a 3 series, in some parts of the country, like Cali, NY, Boston, they are pretty common. Not all people who buy BMW wants to show off, test drive one and you might understand the balance/handling/power (if you are into that sort of thing). And try to shut the door of a BMW, you will know how solid it feels compare to honda/toyota.
Update: He doesn't want 325's or 323's anymore, performance was noticeable between those and 330i's. Another BMW dealership did offer a 2001 325i for just above $22K total (the original list price) that included TTL cost and an extended warranty. Was given the choice of just naming a price that won't included TTL or warranty, and seeing if the Mgr okays it. It has 63k mi though. He isn't really considering this too much even though he test drove it and said it was good and clean. That dealership also offered a 1999 manual 540i with 103k mi for $16k. He didn't really consider this offer either even though he said the ride was incredible and car was in fair to good condition, V8 has it's pluses. He did come up with a Plan B outside of BMW: a 2002 Infiniti G20 that has 28k mi, bargained for $14k plus TTL. Still under warranty (barely). Doesn't compare performance wise to the 330i, but has some nice luxury features like most Infinitis. It's basically a Nissan with an Infiniti logo. Wondering if anyone could comment on that car.
BMW is all about one thing. Balance. It's a great blend of everything that you're looking for. Luxury, Utility, Practicality and sportiness. It's not the best at any one category but excels when you put the complete package together. There are plenty cars faster than a bmw. Plenty that are more luxurious, Plenty that are more spacious. But few put themselves on the top 10 list in all categories. All cars in this class are great cars. IS300, CTS, Acura TL, C-Class. But the only other car I would compare to the 3 series in this class is the G35. Infiniti/Nissan has come a long way with the G35. Only thing though is the common factor. 3-series are more common these days but the G35 has been so successful that there are more of those vehicles on the road than the 3-series and BMW had a headstart in that department. BMW engines are bullet proof in my opinion. The only things I worry about are the little things like battery, keys, window switches, weather stripping. These are all things that I've experienced. Minor things but the car has never left me stranded. I do all my oil changes and the parts for bmw's are not expensive at all. It's the labor charges that kill you. Certified BMW technicians obviously get paid more than Honda or Toyota technicians and that's where you get bitten. But if you can find an experienced mechanic who is bmw certified other than the dealerships then you usually don't have that problem. Friend of mine used to be a tech at Park Place and Momentum and he's opened his own shop. Thank god for him or else I'd be getting my eyes gouged out. I wouldn't go for anything less than the 330 though unless you do get a 323 or 325 manual at least. Then again I'd recommend the 330 manual as well. It's another thing that sets the bmw apart from it's competitors as their manuals are one of the slickest around. So easy to control and drive that it's almost as easy as an automatic. I regret getting an auto in my 330ci. Yes yes I own a bmw so I'm a bit biased but trust me. I was dead set on getting another camry before I bought my bmw and I did research for a whole year before buying my car. There is definitely some tough competition in that class of cars but I wouldn't trade my bmw in for any of them. G35 and Audi A4 would be my next choice. NOTE: Get a damn manual!!!! BIGGIESTUFF....OUT!!
As usual, I would expect it to be cheaper than the best German competition, since it's the only way Lexus would sell enough of it to directly compete with the 3-series. That's what Lexus always does: undercuts the competition on price. It should be a nice car though from what I hear. I will be test-driving it when it's out.
Ummm....alot people here it seems have never driven a BMW. So in the end, speaking out of their ass. Because if they had driven one, even a 323, they would realize why anyone would want to pay the extra buck for it. The shifting is soo smoothe like someone mentioned it doesnt even seem like you are driving a manual. The handling is unmatched by any American or Japanese car. Audi can match its handling and ride very well and so can Benz. My parents love Japanese cars, but I will always buy a European car. Hell if reliability is all you are looking for, in recent years Hyundai has started to top the charts on reliability so we should all just rush the Hundai dealership? I am only 20 so I have only had one car so far. The VW Passat 2.8L V6. The car has better handling, smoother ride, and the clutch is just heaven when compared to Accords and Camrys. Also the reliability issues for the European cars have came up in the past 5 years. I have read articles in car magazines explaining why. The thing is that 5 to 10 years ago, you could not even think about saying that an Accord would be more reliable than a Benz. The only reason right now European cars as a collective are having a decline in their durability is that they have been so focused on technology and getting all the gadgets and performance to work correctly they have not had time to completely concentrate on the durability of the car. They now use computer models to design the car where as before they would model it and build it to check for any reliability problems. This trend towards computer usage was because when building and re-building to get it perfect delayed the release of the car and in the end raised the price of the car substantially. I beleive in '96, it took them 8 months to get the MB S-class the way they wanted it and it raised the price dramatically. Also alot of the reliability had to do with them not doing stricter inspections at the factory during production (again so more people could afford the car). But for Euro lovers such as me, dont worry. All major European car companies such as VW, Audi, MB, and others are going back to testing the reliability of their cars better before sending them out. They have noticed the decline in their reliability and starting a year or two ago they have implemented many ideas on how to get their reliability back up. So yeah the newer Euro cars that will be coming out in the next two or three years will again begin to match Japanese cars' reliability and so people will no longer wonder why anyone would get European cars over their Japanese and American counterparts.
I think what's clear is the value proposition is different for some people than others. I have driven Acuras, Lexus, BMWs, Porsche, Toyota, Honda, American, etc. I haven't driven any new Infinti's, though I drove an old school (mid 90s model) Q45 - talk about tourque. Clearly, if I'm out at a racetrack, I'm going to want a Porsche above all the others mentioned and a BMW/Infiniti (apparently) after that, followed shortly by Lexus/Acura. When I was younger, it made me think those cars therefore were cooler. With age came the realization that an Acura or Lexus with just as much power goes just as fast as a similiar BMW and handles just as well for 99.99999% of people out there (including likely everyone in this thread), but in different ways, and scores much higher on reliability, pricing, saftey, and overall comfort.
I guess we just have to agree to disagree on the handling and ride of those cars compared to BMW. But safetywise, the BMW's stability control is lightyears ahead of those other cars. Japanese cars are just starting to catch up in that area. Lets just say I have tested this out.
well to get back on topic here, the OP was questioning about the 3 vehicles for sale. It seems that the buyer is already dead set on getting a bmw. I wouldn't go for the 95 M3. It's a great car but sorely outdated. Still a blast to drive but it's lacking a lot of the amenities that are available on newer cars. If the 330 is a manual I'd consider it and try to negotiate with the seller. Obviously there are many more out there, but if you're going to try and stick within your price range then you'll have to find a model with a bit more mileage on it. Probably talking about 70-80K miles. I've hit 84K miles on mine and it's still running strong. Skip the 323 at all costs. You're just losing the engine power on the 323 but your'e also losing suspension upgrades and larger brakes. Some things that make a bmw what they are. If I had a choice between the 3, I'd go for the 330. Sounds though that your friend is contemplating the vehicle even though it's out of his price range. If he does go for a vehicle around 22K though, He'd probably be better off finding a 2002 330 instead. The build quality different between 2002 and 2001 is noticeable. Also on top of that the most important difference between the 2002 and 2001 330's is the steering rack. BMW in 2001 added more power assist in their steering in 2001. Many bmw enthusiasts complained and they reverted the 2002's back to pre-2001. Now to most the difference is not even noticeable. I suggest he drive both years back to back to see if he can tell the difference. For me it was night and day. The light steering in the 2001's really takes away from the instant feedback but it's still head and shoulders above any other vehicle in it's class.
All the E46 BMWs with 4 doors have junk window regulators. The cables come off track and the windows get stuck down. E46 sunroof drives were weak in the first years, causing the headliner for the glass to come off track and get stuck. There are now kits available to fix this and make it more reliable. The front control arms and bushings don't last very well, and you can tell when you brake, that there is play in the front end. Engine mechanical is good, with most of the problems being electrical, sensors.. I like BMW's alright, but keep in mind that the only ones I deal with, are in the shop with something wrong.....and they piss me off too.......
I'm not saying each car doesn't have its own special handling attributes. I'm saying if you put a 330Ci against a Lexus IS 350 (or even 300) on a track, the "winner" will be dependent on driver for 99.999% of the population, not the car.
Exactly. The majority of people that buy a BMW "lower" than a 328 are more than likely doing it just to drive a BMW. Just check out all the princesses driving 3-series cars and you'll understand. Handling, shmandling... 99% of your driving won't even incorporate that wonderful BMW handling. Wooptie doo. And about 25% of the time you're going to get blown off the line by stock G35's you decided to "race" that can handle 98% as well.
A good driver in a Miata can run circles around a bad driver in a Porsche on some tracks, so what's your point. Just because driver skills make a lot of difference doesn't mean you shouldn't get the better handling car. Oh yeah, Lexus IS 350 is not even out yet, and IS 300 is not close to a 330Ci in terms of handling/power/balance. And in terms of handling, the popular Lexus/Acura cars are pretty far behind. ES, TL, all of them are front wheel drive nose heavy cars.
I don't know, I enjoy the BMW handling everyday going to/from work. Just because you don't appreciate BMW's handling doesn't mean others won't, and if you are buying a BMW to "Blow people off the line", then you are missing the point, might as well go get a muscle car.
