1. Welcome! Please take a few seconds to create your free account to post threads, make some friends, remove a few ads while surfing and much more. ClutchFans has been bringing fans together to talk Houston Sports since 1996. Join us!

Limitations of Moreyball: Analysis of the Rockets Clutch Performances

Discussion in 'Houston Rockets: Game Action & Roster Moves' started by Voice of Aus, Aug 15, 2013.

  1. lfw

    lfw Rookie

    Joined:
    Nov 15, 2012
    Messages:
    1,221
    Likes Received:
    33
    Great post. Thanks for the effort that went into putting this together.
     
  2. Exel

    Exel Member

    Joined:
    Nov 4, 2012
    Messages:
    965
    Likes Received:
    29
    Great work and definitely interesting!

    It would be great if there was a breakdown to how many of those made clutch shots were assisted vs unassisted. It would at least give you an idea on how much defensive pressure a player was facing. Furthermore, it would be great to see who assisted on those clutch makes.
     
  3. Voice of Aus

    Voice of Aus Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Jun 28, 2013
    Messages:
    5,157
    Likes Received:
    410
    hmmm i like that assitsed vs non assisted aspect..

    maybe ill put that on my to do list on a rainy day
     
  4. Nook

    Nook Member

    Joined:
    Jun 27, 2008
    Messages:
    54,172
    Likes Received:
    112,819
    This is exactly what happens, and it is the difference between someone that can hit an open shot, and someone that can create their own shot and create open shots for others by drawing a double team.

    The ball goes through Harden in crunch time PERIOD. He decides if he has a shot, or whom to kick it to. Parsons and Lin both are capable of hitting open shots.
     
  5. rokit

    rokit Member

    Joined:
    Nov 15, 2012
    Messages:
    925
    Likes Received:
    26
    82games.com

    with less then 5min left

    Harden 12% assisted
    Lin 44%
    Parsons 67%
     
  6. Nook

    Nook Member

    Joined:
    Jun 27, 2008
    Messages:
    54,172
    Likes Received:
    112,819
    This.

    Also, even if their is disagreement as to what the statistics actually measure, and what the possible implications are, the work you put into this matter is appreciated and people doing what you are doing is how we ever come to a conclusive measure.
     
  7. Voice of Aus

    Voice of Aus Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Jun 28, 2013
    Messages:
    5,157
    Likes Received:
    410
    thankyou? im confused at the end but i think your heart is in the right spot, if not im calling LOH haha
     
  8. trueroxfan

    trueroxfan Member

    Joined:
    Apr 24, 2008
    Messages:
    4,170
    Likes Received:
    143
    <blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p>Excited to do an AMA on reddit this Friday at 3PM ET/2PM CT. Will try not to get fined. <a href="http://t.co/piJygO6awn">http://t.co/piJygO6awn</a></p>&mdash; Daryl Morey (@dmorey) <a href="https://twitter.com/dmorey/statuses/368054820000657408">August 15, 2013</a></blockquote>
    <script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

    Just an fyi, just noticed and didn't think it needed a thread.
     
  9. Voice of Aus

    Voice of Aus Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Jun 28, 2013
    Messages:
    5,157
    Likes Received:
    410
    i hate u.....:mad:

    when i saw a morey tweet, i thought MOREY READ MY ARTICLE and is tweeting me..

    but no sadly....


    i really hate you hahahaha:mad:
     
    1 person likes this.
  10. GIGO

    GIGO Member

    Joined:
    Aug 6, 2012
    Messages:
    3,352
    Likes Received:
    1,879
  11. YYYY1313

    YYYY1313 Member

    Joined:
    Jul 18, 2012
    Messages:
    1,235
    Likes Received:
    8
    Great read, can't wait to read more of your upcoming posts/articles.
     
  12. Voice of Aus

    Voice of Aus Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Jun 28, 2013
    Messages:
    5,157
    Likes Received:
    410
    Im generally surprised so many people have liked this sort of analysis, being someone form Australia who has never gone to an NBA game, i thought i would get a lot of hate, just shows CF's is awesome

    This has given me much more motivation and confidence in my writing going forward. thanks gigo and everyone else for just clicking on this thread, when you could easily be on the Beiber thread repping rodmans gif.
     
  13. dragician

    dragician Member

    Joined:
    Feb 27, 2011
    Messages:
    3,990
    Likes Received:
    131
    I hear voices from downunder. great stuff. ;)
     
  14. raskol

    raskol Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Jul 18, 2012
    Messages:
    2,932
    Likes Received:
    162
    Great post. Thanks for the time and I definitely look forward to part deus!
    I would love to see the video clips that you collected from all the clutch plays last year. Were there any other significant, even subjective, patterns that you noticed around our clutch-time strategy?
     
  15. crash5179

    crash5179 Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Dec 9, 2000
    Messages:
    16,465
    Likes Received:
    1,290
    I think he was trying to get down to who is most capable of making points in the clutch regardless of the type of shot. It's difficult if not impossible to take into account every single possible variable.

    Voice of Aus
    Great Read! Enjoyed the effort and the post.

    I'm curious how Harden, Lin and CP25 compare to other players with similar usage rates on other teams. I know you mentioned CP3.

    Keep up the nice articles, this is the kind of article that would look good on the front page IMO.
     
  16. Voice of Aus

    Voice of Aus Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Jun 28, 2013
    Messages:
    5,157
    Likes Received:
    410

    there was a couple i picked up (however the sample size was less than 10 games), 1 weird one was when someone catches the ball with the game tight we often dribbled on the spot instead of attacked with the dribble, which to what i feel made the Defence be able to set again when we swung the ball..

    i think we were terriable at swinging the ball in the clutch however, say in the second quarter when we swung the ball and ran eg: flare screens we had the ability so make defences out of position, by making harden a decoy.. never undertsood why we didnt run this in the clutch when the initial PnR broke down

    <iframe width="560" height="315" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/Vyi6baXVeJ4?rel=0" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

    its such a good play to get someone like lin or parsons touches if harden is off
     
  17. meh

    meh Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Jun 16, 2002
    Messages:
    15,384
    Likes Received:
    2,256
    It's always nice to see some effort in the analysis, but I must say you missed the biggest aspect of why Morey doesn't believe in clutchness, which is luck factor.

    The limit of moneyball, not Moreyball because it's not introduced by Morey but by baseball analytics, is that it based on the fundamental concept of luck being analyzable in the long term, but not the short term. In the short term, stats that have small sample size cannot be given weight because it's unreliable in the long run. And 1-year player clutch stats are the definition of small sample size. Don't believe me? Check out 82games clutch rankings from year to year. In the long term though, the theory goes, the concept of clutchness disappears.

    If you don't believe me, here's a chart of +/- of all teams within a 5 years span up to 2012. Scroll down a bit.

    http://espn.go.com/blog/truehoop/post/_/id/40886/outscoring-opponents-in-the-clutch

    It's a chart that basically runs all over the place. Some nuggets.

    1. Do you think the Spurs clutch? Well, they've been outscored 2 out of 5 years in clutch situations.
    2. You mention how young teams are supposedly "less clutch". Yet the Durant/Westbrook/Harden Thunder teams were more clutch in 2011 than 2012, the latter of which they went to the finals.
    3. Who had a better crunch time +/-? Scola/Lowry/Dragic Rockets or LeBron/Wade/Bosh Heat in 2012? Yeah, the latter was still the best team in the NBA and the former was still mediocrity.

    Morey has some of the best analytical people working for him. If there truly is something to clutch play, then he would've found it before everyone else.
     
  18. Voice of Aus

    Voice of Aus Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Jun 28, 2013
    Messages:
    5,157
    Likes Received:
    410
    ill look into it, i think we would rate pretty high because our main volume shot attempter in the clutch (harden) was still not terriable.

    ill also look into other 5 man squads due to dwight. looking at stats from Lin, harden, Parsons is gonna be fun with d12 drawing double teams and running the PnR
     
  19. Nook

    Nook Member

    Joined:
    Jun 27, 2008
    Messages:
    54,172
    Likes Received:
    112,819
    What I am saying is that whenever you do reseach or a project relying on statistics as a measure of performance, there will be debate as to whether the statistics actually measure the performance or are limited. There will be debate and controversy, as there is in this thread..... however, there is value in the exercise and putting your neck on the line..... ultimately, the only way we arrive at generally accepted measures is by doing what you have done, attempt to reach a conclusion based on what information. Scrutiny will emerge, variables will be added and subtracted and ultimately we arrive at some close measure of actual performance.
     
  20. Voice of Aus

    Voice of Aus Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Jun 28, 2013
    Messages:
    5,157
    Likes Received:
    410
    Thanks meh,

    my friend yesterday brought up the luck factor and told me to use it however i argued luck is so subjective.
    luck could mean someone who is a terriable on ball defender switches onto you or it could be a foul not called.

    i tried to stay away from this subjectivity as i looked more closely at the numbers, because i didnt have the edited film to back be up ATM.

    in saying that your 110% and i am thankful for your comment
     

Share This Page

  • About ClutchFans

    Since 1996, ClutchFans has been loud and proud covering the Houston Rockets, helping set an industry standard for team fan sites. The forums have been a home for Houston sports fans as well as basketball fanatics around the globe.

  • Support ClutchFans!

    If you find that ClutchFans is a valuable resource for you, please consider becoming a Supporting Member. Supporting Members can upload photos and attachments directly to their posts, customize their user title and more. Gold Supporters see zero ads!


    Upgrade Now