Every time Democrats wanna have a good time, ignant ass Republicans **** it up. BJ puts way too much energy into this board, especially when you consider how little effort the bassos commit.
That joke has gotten old too. The moment the political factions stop one upping each other and start negotiating in earnest, we will start being able to get things accomplished.
The history is that lying, two-faced conservatives like Bush, Cheney, Rove, Palin, Bachman, etc. have painted liberals as un-American for disagreeing with now proven ignorant ideas on Iraq, WMD, 9/11, Gitmo, wiretapping, torture, death panels, etc. Lying and deception has become a staple of conservative politics.
...Right, great. So the conservatives are dirty liars and the liberals are pure and never did anything bad. Look, both sides have their mistakes and ideological differences and nutjobs (and Bush did not "lie" any more about Iraq than he stole the election), and the point of the article is to mentioned the problems on both sides. I disagree completely with Obama and the Democrats and might even call them weak socialists, but I don't think that they're Un-American or evil or anything like that. It's this idea that one political side is evil and the other is pure that has led to a huge amount of problems in politics in general as it opens up nutjobs to control power and so on. So your little rant doesn't help anything at all.
Sure. But I think neither I nor the guy in the article are claiming that people are never ignorant. I think the point is that an easy way for a liberal to dismiss a conservative is to just say he or she is ignorant, but doing so ignores a deeper reasoning and rationale behind those conservative beliefs and stifles the ability for either side to gain understanding.
Committing a homicide and jay-walking are both illegal and are thus equally bad. Am I on the right track here?
First of all, Bush did lie about the war. Where the hell have you been? Second of all, I wasn't trying to "help anything" other than to clarify the description of un-American liberals and ignorant conservatives. Un-American liberal is a tag trotted out by conservatives for political purposes and ignorant conservatives is a tag supported by the results of their lies and failed policies.
I think I understand it fine. If I believed the ignorant stuff (much of it lies as demonstrated in this thread) that they do that would be plenty enough rationale for me to hold "conservative" beliefs.
I don't think conservatives are more ignorant than liberals, I think the difference is they fear different things. Conservatives hold onto traditions and an image of a way of life they inherited from their parents. Thus they tend to be distrustful of anything outside of that. New movements, bold ideas, foreigners, etc...all are threats to their security. White men who are strong, tough, and speak directly and clearly are what they trust. It's very paternal. They think they are more patriotic by nature, because they don't like to criticize their own country - that makes no sense to them. Only someone who isn't loyal or unAmerican would that, because America is pretty awesome. Thus they see liberals as ingrates and self-haters. Their ideals tend to be inherited and religious. Fairness comes from hard work. You get what you put in. It's immoral to be lazy and ask for a hand-out. Liberals are ignorant too. They think nuclear power is connected to bombs. They think they have the moral high ground as well. And that their views are the only right ones. They look forward instead of the past. The see problems today, but think with change and progress, they can be overcome. They also see themselves as being educated and open-minded and instruments to acheive these goals. In fact, it's probably their ideals to accomplish this that made them seek out an education in the first place. They want to be in touch with a greater world, and see that America's role is more then to lead with the sword, but promote these ideals of a better future. They hold compassion and humanism very highly, and thus are fairly maternal is some ways. fairness is about equality and social justice. Not every one has been created equal or given the best chances, therefore it's fair for the gov't to help some people but not others. But they aren't unpatriotic, because challenging their country is a means to make it a better place. So this puts these two groups at odds. It's not just a political ideological difference. It's a way of life. Liberals and conservatives literally are going in the opposite direction. They are opposed because while one seeks to maintain and celebrate the past, the other seeks to usher inthe future.
What the two sides have in common is that they arrogantly ignore the mistakes of world history...and thus, they appear to seek to repeat them.
Chalk up another example of "tradition" I guess...Of course, the new thing are these special "czars"...
Are there any other boxes we can be placed in? Any unused clichés laying around? Surely some grander, more sweeping generalizations can be found. Believing we are all complex creatures impossible to pigeonhole would be too boring a concept and, of course, some around here seem hell-bent on proving they should have feathers, with their head crammed into that lair, pigeon poop notwithstanding. They want to be labeled, categorized, placed on a shelf. Funny how they often make the most noise. I know it is September, but this has to be the dog days of Summer, or Hell.
African-Americans overwhelmingly voted for Prop 8, go to church at higher rates than whites, and are underrepresented in the sciences and engineering. I don't suppose you will indulge in any intolerant generalizing here though will you?
But what happens if the person *is* ignorant and shows no interest in legitimate debate? There are plenty of conservatives here having rational discussions on various topics - see the Obama Health Care Speech thread for many examples. The other ones - the bassos of the world - need to be called out on it. They need to be labeled as ignorant and not treated as valid voices in the debate, because they seek nothing but to ruin the debate. They show no interest in learning from the other side, at which point they are just like the protesters who simply try to shout down the other side.
Batman - I think you sometimes see the absolute "worst" or "fringe" elements of the GOP and assume that all Republicans are the same. I'm a Republican and there is A LOT I disagree with about them. Sometimes, party-identification is a tricky thing. I have friends who pretty much think the same way I do - yet they consider themselves Democrats. It would be unfair of me to label them unpatriotic vegan socialists just because some on the fringe left might participate in some Communist, flag-burning, tree-spiking parties. This country would surely crumble and fall apart if Republicans were as bad as you say they are. Basically half of the population would be consisted of evil, stupid, racist, morons. Surely you must have some friends who voted for McCain. Do you really consider them to be stupid aholes?
going to church doesn't automatically make you a religous nut & you can believe in science without a science or engineering degree
To be fair, there are plenty of liberals on the board who are indulge in little else than finger-pointing too. And they far outnumber Basso. Basso only stands out because this board leans liberal.
