Anybody else tired of hearing the same boring useless rhetoric every year? Doesn't matter who's running or who's in office, it has been like this forever. Wash, rinse, repeat every year. Same damn crap, same damn finger pointing, same damn hyprocrisy on both sides. What kills me is we let this crap be the bases for name calling. Because of it we actually think that half the population is wrong, or ignorant. Excuse me? Half of us are wrong?
After what has gone down over the last decade or so it's really hard to compare the shortcomings of Democrats to the shortcomings of Republicans. The Republicans have done/believed some absolutely insane things. The worst thing you can say about the Dems is that they didn't have the power or the courage to stop the Republicans from doing/believing these crazy things.
That might be true, but that isn't what the article is doing. In fact, it is statements like this and others in this thread that are prime examples of exactly what it is talking about as a bad thing for political discourse in America regardless of who is right and who is wrong.
Your statement made sense 10 years ago. Not any more. Nothing is worse for political discourse than a major party lying and endorsing lies as a matter of strategy. That kind of behavior makes any civil discourse flatly impossible.
Says the guy who brings up posters' dead friends to "get them going." That's more basso-like than anything I've ever done.
You know, this sort of thing, more than anything else, is what's wrong with our political discourse. As Dave78 pointed out, these things are NOT the same. basso is a troll. He lies, slanders and plagiarizes. He is fundamentally dishonest and fundamentally nasty. He is here to push buttons and he is in no way accountable to basic truths. He flaunts the rules and the instructions of the moderators; he demands evidence then ignores it, while also ignoring demands for evidence from him. He is accountable to nothing and no one. I don't do any of things and I am nothing like that. I am too rude. I agree. I tell people to **** off when I disagree with them. I am nasty with people when I think they've earned it. And I sometimes make bold, sweeping statements about the opposition. I don't lie, I don't slander, I don't plagiarize and I don't troll. I might be a dick, but we are in no way the same. Considering unequal things to be equal in an effort to say **** anyone who's impassioned about politics (including politicians) is why we're in this mess.
The Republicans are either ignorant or evil. They are the Spanish Inquisition of our time; Machiavellian in their abuse of power; Orwellian in the way they twist the language, where the people are persuaded against their own interest. If you don't think it's all about money then you aren't looking at history's lessons. Democrats might believe any damn thing. There is no party line or list of talking points, just disparate ideas competing for attention.
All you are saying is that you are just as incapable of understanding the opposition as they are. As I said, in the context of this discussion (or at least the context of the article) it doesn't matter if they are wrong. As it turns out, I think the interaction with basso in this forum is a great example. I actually think you are guilty of the same thing basso is with respect to understanding the point of view of the other person. (Although I admit to being relatively new here so I expect my opinion to be taken with a grain of salt.) I'm not saying your overall behaviors are equivalent, but both sides seem to suffer from the same misunderstanding. I think a big reason that basso acts the way he does is because he doesn't understand the mindset of liberals/democrats/Obama supporters. He is frustrated by their actions and doesn't understand how they could possibly think that what they stand for is actually a good thing. The same could be said for many conservatives here and in general. This frustration leads to an us versus them attitude that makes it easy to dismiss any opposition argument even when it is entirely reasonable and logical. That doesn't excuse the behaviors, but it does go far in explaining the apparent lack of self-awareness. When somebody tries to explain to basso, even civilly, why posting a random blog or youtube clip in a new thread with little or no comment or context is not conducive to good discussion, I'm sure his first instinct is to dismiss such criticism because of its source. That then makes it easier to rationalize despite the near consensus opinion that disagrees. And when he disappears from a thread after somebody deftly rebuts his claim, I seriously doubt he thinks to himself, "they got me there, I guess I better move on to the next diversion." It is more likely that he thinks, "that can't be right, but I don't have the time or inclination to research and rebut it." So where are you similar to him? Like him, you can't fathom how he can possibly have the beliefs he has without being ignorant or stupid. You assume that because his beliefs are irrational in your mind, his behavior can only be explained as lies and manipulation. You think that because much of his behavior and many of his beliefs don't make sense to you, that they cannot be honest. Many liberals (as evidenced by this thread) feel the same way. They think conservatives/Republicans/anti-Obama people can't possibly have the views they do unless they are ignorant or dishonest. Do you really think the guy who yelled "you lie" at Obama is doing it as a calculated political ploy knowing that it isn't true? Of course not (although might just think he's stupid). He really believes that Obama is lying and that the truth is on his side. It seems preposterous to you, which is why you claim that the Republicans are lying and endorsing lies as calculated strategy when in reality they probably believe strongly they are in the right and at worst twist and distort things to best get their message followed (something that is done by politicians of all types). I honestly think basso doesn't understand why you think that you don't slander people with down syndrome. I think he honestly thinks you are attacking Trig to score political points. And because you don't believe that he honestly believes that, you make it worse by continuing the behavior that leads to his misunderstanding. In the words of the original Fat b*stard, "It's a vicious cycle." The same thing happens in all kinds of conversations on this forum and in real life. The lack of understanding of the mindset of the other person leads to an adversarial conversation and the adversarial nature of the conversation obscures the ability to understand the mindset of the other person. This article (and the one written by Haidt about why people are Republican) are so interesting because they try to get us out of that cycle. Even if you disagree about the importance of various values, by understanding which values influence the beliefs of others you can at least accept those beliefs as coming from an honest place. Once both sides accept the opposing viewpoint as honest, it becomes much easier to discuss those disagreements civilly and come to a common understanding even if agreement is never reached. Note: Obviously my opinions about specific posters are just based on a little bit of observation. I'm quite certain I could be completely wrong. The general comments are also just meant as general observations, not necessarily applying to all individuals who might fall into the categories I refer to. Please don't take the above post too seriously, no offense is intended. Cheers!
Very well stated uolj...The exact nature of difference is an inability/refusal to see any good of the other side. Batman and Joker are made for each other because they are the polarizing opposites. It makes the 2 party system that much more fun for a moderate...
There's nothing wrong with that. I have some real moments myself. Perhaps we should sign up for the same Carnegie course.
