in 2007-2008, the rockets were the 2nd ranked defense in the NBA in overall Drtg. that roster was composed as follows: 2007-2008 Starters: 12 Rafer Alston (2500mp) 31 Shane Battier (2900mp) 1 Tracy McGrady (2400mp) 11 Yao Ming (2000mp) 4 Luis Scola (2000mp) Key Reserves (at least 500 minutes played): 0 Aaron Brooks (600mp) 44 Chuck Hayes (1600mp) 2 Luther Head (1400mp) 8 Bobby Jackson (500mp) 7 Mike James (500mp) 14 Carl Landry (700mp) 55 Dikembe Mutombo (600mp) 6 Bonzi Wells (1100mp) of the starters, i think it's fair to say that only Yao and Shane are solid + defenders, with Rafer being average, and Tracy and Luis being - defenders. of the key reserves, we know Aaron, Luther, and Carl were - defenders as well, and they played a fair number of minutes that year. it looks like Chuck was the first big off the bench, and then obviously there was Deke when you needed him, and both of them were + defenders. now, for comparison purposes, here's the 2010-2011 roster 2010-2011 Expected Starters: 1 Trevor Ariza 0 Aaron Brooks 12 Kevin Martin 4 Luis Scola 11 Yao Ming Key Reserves (Expected to play 500 minutes): 31 Shane Battier 10 Chase Budinger 44 Chuck Hayes 7 Kyle Lowry 1 Brad Miller 27 Jordan Hill Of the starters, I think it's fair to say that Trevor and Yao are both + defenders, while Kevin, Aaron, and Luis are - defenders. overall its a weaker defensive starting lineup only by the degree to which Aaron is worse than Rafer was. I am considering Ariza and Shane roughly equivalent, which is probably underselling Shane quite a bit, but their defensive styles are so different that its hard to compare the two. Of the bench, Shane, Chuck, and Kyle are all + defenders, while Chase, and Brad are - defenders. I'm neutral on Jordan because i think he's really inconsistent defensively but has a lot of good tools, so we don't really know what he'll turn into this season. obviously i am dramatically oversimplifying things, but i just wanted to use this as a starting point for the discussion . . . so here's what I want to know . . . what made that 2007-2008 team such a defensive beast? the type of personnel available isn't dramatically different from what the rockets are looking at today, even though the roster has turned over quite a bit. is it just the presence of Yao and/or having a defensive big at the 5? is it defensive principles from the JVG era? is it the large amount of playing time for the most effective defenders (Shane, Yao, Chuck)? and the most important question of all - if that team was the #2 defensive team in the NBA with that roster, what should we expect with the return of Yao to the 2010-2011 roster?
I think it had a lot to do with the style of play and coaching philosophy. With our slow it down run it thru the big man approach we would definitely be able to get back on defense quicker after a bucket, bad shot, or missed shot. Now that we've went with a run and gun type offense with the ability to slow it down we will probably not be able to get back as well to slow down the other team's O. The personnel obviously has a lot to do with it, if you have Chuck Hayes with the bulk of the minutes up front then of course you're sacrificing offense for defense, insert Luis Scola and its vice versa. Adelman has had more his type of players come into the fold since he's arrived and although he does preach defense his expertise is obviously more helpful on the offensive end.
Did we still have Thibedou (I just butchered his name) that season? I think by that point we had lost him, so I have to chalk it up to JVG and his defensive schemes.
I think its a combination of all of those things. We played more veterans that year that knew how to play with eachother. Mutombo, when he started getting minutes, was a fantastic defensive presence. Chuck played more minutes at PF in the first half of the season, and that's where he excels. There were a lot of things last year that went into us being a poor defensive team. Not having a Yao or Mutombo was a big part of it. But there's also all the young guys that were playing. I think Adelman might have been putting more focus on offense with the guys he had last year, because he knew he didn't have the type of players or experience he needed to be a really good defensive team.
4 out of 5 of those players were good defensively, and the 5th could be when he wanted to be. Battier was one of the best defensive players in the league, and Yao was a big difference maker. Scola is underrated defensively, with average defensive skills and plus defensive effort. Rafer is a solid defensive PG, light years ahead of AB on that end. T-Mac was the weak link defensively in the starting lineup, and that's a pretty strong weak link. Off the bench, we had two great defensive big men in Deke and Chuck, and Chuck was the 6th man. This year's team has two poor defensive players in the backcourt, but they'll get some good defensive help with their replacements. (I'm assuming Battier will play a lot at the 2.) They won't be as good as the 07-08 team, but there's no reason they can't have a Top 10 defense.
If this team wants to get back to the defensive power they became two years ago, they'll have to be much more physical. Body up, get in the way, and just generally wreak havoc on the floor. Deny the passing lanes, anticipate the cuts, get your hands in the way, and for goodness sake... NO LAYUPS. Whether or not they will have the ability to do that is something I tend to doubt at this point.
I couldnt agree more. But Brooks/Martin are gonna have to really step it up. To get out of the West brooks is gonna have to get past bigger PG's such as Williams, Westbrook, Hill, Billups. Hes gonna have to start playing quality denfense. Hopefully Yao will regain some quickness so he can block shots more easily. But yes, it all depends on the big fella.
I think Rafer was a + defender then. I'd also say Tracey was average that year (+ tools, - motor), and Shane was ++ back then. That team did a LOT better job of contesting jumpers on the perimeter than last year's team. Also did not let guys by them nearly as bad, and had a shot blocker at the rim, and a defensive HOFer (Deke) off the bench. Echoes of JVG's principles mattered too. Back then, the biggest weakness was Yao in the pick n roll defense. How 22 in a row happens.
Yao, Scola, Battier..... all 3 years older. Yao did not play for 1.5 years after the big surgery. ... I'd be happy if our defense can rank in top 20.
Defensively... Yao 2010 < Yao 2008 Scola 2010 = Scola 2008 Ariza 2010 < Shane 2008 Martin 2010 < McGrady 2008 Brooks 2010 < Rafer 2008 The starter defense just is much worse than it was back then. Ariza's not half the man-to-man defender that Battier was back then, and Yao won't be playing enough minutes to come close to his defensive production, even if he's all the way back athletically (which isn't likely). T-Mac could D up when he wanted to (like taking on Dirk at times in the playoffs), Martin just isn't a very capable defender. And Rafer was definitely a good defensive PG, with more size and ability on the defensive end than Aaron has. This team isn't getting back to top-2 or even top-5 defensively as currently constructed. We've definitely shifted personnel-wise to an offensive team.
I don't know how much I buy this. Martin isn't that strong, but he's long and quick. For a player of his talent level, defense is about 80% attitude. There's no reason he can't be as good as someone like Rip Hamilton on defense.
don't know how much i agree with that. even if yao isn't all the way back athletically, his 2008 defense was hardly athletic. it was based mostly on being great at defending the post (which should still be in the case) because he's tall and heavy, and doesn't need to jump much to contest shots. in the pick n roll he might be a little slower, but given how slow he already was, it shouldnt matter much. i guess i'm just not seeing where Yao's game will suffer much defensively other than just not being on the court as much. martin is not worse than mcgrady. mcgrady had better tools and physical skills, but he rarely used them on defense. i think martin puts forth a more consistent effort, and once he gets used to playing with the rest of the core (on a team that actually cares about defense) he'll be at least on par with mcgrady, if not better. beyond that, i definitely agree that brooks < rafer, and overall that ariza < 2008 shane. but again, that was a top 2 defensive team. morey has said that for a team to compete, it needs to be a top 10 defensive and offensive team. if that team was top 2, can this one be top 10?
Also, let's not forget that both Hill and Martin came in February and were not used to the schemes we were running. Giving them a full training camp, the defensive and offensive chemistry will be better. I expect the team to be in the top 8 or so this year on D. DD
i think we share roughly the same expectations. i think if the rockets can get to top 8 in defensive rating this year, and with the uptick in offensive efficiency that should come about due to the return of yao (both from a FG% and FTA standpoint), this could be the most well balanced team we've seen in quite a few years. so much depends on making sure Yao gets back on the court enough to be productive without overworking him. i don't know how they will do it.
If Yao played 37 minutes per game in 2008 and is expected to play about 24 minutes per in 2010, that's a difference of 13 minutes per game, or more than a quarter. Add in that those backup minutes in 2008 were being played by Deke, a force on the defensive end, and now we have Miller, who gives effort but isn't anything to write home about defensively. I'd say that for 24 minutes a game (half the game), the center defense will be worse, even if you believe that Yao hasn't lost anything in his year and a half off the court. Considering the importance of a shot-blocker to our defensive schemes, that's a huge deal.
yup yup. the center spot seems to be the key to the whole deal, just based on a superficial look at things. if there's any reason to think the defense won't bounce back, i think that's going to be it. makes me wonder if maybe that tyson chandler deal wasn't worth it after all.
Tmac was a better defender, even at that point, than Martin. Rafer was better than Brooks defensively. Battier has lost a step. I don't think Yao coming back will solve all our defensive woes. Remember that we've lost him several times and always maintained our D. We were blessed to have Mutombo, but he's gone now. Our issues stem with the personnel we have now, especially in the backcourt.
