Celtics have no negotiation power. If the Cavs feel like they just traded Kyrie for a pick in the #5-#10 range & Jae Crowder, you rescind the deal and can easily get something similar or better and basically say F U to a Conference rival. Celts would be a disaster if trade rescinded, Cavs could easily still move (the openly requesting a trade) Kyrie.
Here he is himself admitting that he may not be back at all next season. If I was Cleveland I would rescind this trade. The Nets pick isn't that good.
No, I don't believe that's what he means. It was a poorly worded statement, so it's a little confusing. I think he's saying he may not be ready for the start of the season, but he expects to be back sometime during the season. At least that's the way I interpreted his statement.
That's true if we assume the Cavs have another deal as good as this one on the table which is in fact probably not there. I also don't get why a lot of people think the Cavs are in a power position here tbh...the Celtics are in a perfect position regardless of this trade, they can rescind it, trade Thomas and Crowder to other teams (if they don't want to play in Boston anymore) and still be a guaranteed 2nd seed in the East for years with more assets than any other team in the league including two players just drafted in top 3, they have also good happeal with players in general which helps in free agency and trades like we saw the past couple of years. On the other hand the Cavs have a player who doesn't even want to show up in tc if not traded, wants to play only for some teams (and most of them have nothing good to trade), they have literally no assets and they're thirsty to get them cuase Lebron is probably gone in 10 months. If i look at these two teams/organizations as today, i just don't see the leverage for the Cavs...and that may be even worse if they've no other deal as good as this one on the table, which is very possible cause out of those teams he said he was ok with (San Antonio, New York, Minnesota, Miami, Boston), only the Celtics have a great pick and a good mix of veterans and young players, Spurs have no assets, Knicks have a decent pick and nothing else but a couple of overpaid and role players, Miami can trade a decent package but they lack a big asset, Minnie has no interest in trading Wiggins so yeah, they have nothing to trade...good luck finding a deal as good as the Boston one, especially before tc starts.
Well tbh in terms of bargaining power I think Celts have the edge. Logically speaking the trade was pretty dumb on their side to begin with, even with Kyrie they ain't beating the Cavs so I don't even know why Ainge broke the bank for Irving. However, Ainge might not want to wait so long I mean his first batch of rooks are about to graduate from their contracts and IT obv won't resign to them anymore even if he becomes healthy. Why not just add Smart or another pick to the deal and close it out?
IT is not tradeable if this deal is rescinded... regardless of how he turns out. Nobody is going to give anything of value for him. Plus both he and Crowder will my work in the Celtics locker room. Kyrie won't be a plus in the Cavs locker room but a Kyrie doesn't mean or epitomize to Cleveland what IT does for Boston. What should Crowder + the Nets pick return in a trade value wise?
fwiw: The compensation due to physical wasn't Parsons. The Parsons pick was already part of the trade, which included swapping 1st to get DMo for the later Mirotic pick. Morey then bought back the 2nd rounder in the same 2011 draft to take Parsons. The compensation was Minny's future, 2012 2nd round pick. This got sent with Flynn and Thabeet to Portland for Camby in a mid-season trade. Portland took Will Barton with the pick (40th).
http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/...avaliers-kyrie-irving-isaiah-thomas-trade-nba It looks unlikely the Cleveland Cavaliers will pry a better haul than the Boston Celtics' standing offer of Thomas, Jae Crowder, Ante Zizic and the Brooklyn Nets' unprotected pick in the 2018 draft -- even with Thomas' status so uncertain due to a lingering hip injury. That may embolden Boston to draw the line at one or two more second-round picks after Cleveland finally asked them Tuesday night for extra compensation. If recovery from various hip ailments, including a bone bruise, does not proceed smoothly, there is at least a slight chance Thomas would miss most of the 2017-18 season, sources say. (Thomas disagrees.) That is the risk for Boston if this deal is voided, the source of whatever leverage the Cavs have in spite of their broken relationship with Irving: If Thomas can't go, who is playing point guard for a Boston team that wants to win 55 games next season? Boston is confident it can get by with more playmaking from Gordon Hayward and Al Horford, and better point guard defense from Terry Rozier and Marcus Smart. But the offense would take a hit on some nights. ... The Milwaukee Bucks lurk on the fringes of the Irving bidding with an offer centered around Malcolm Brogdon, the reigning NBA Rookie of the Year, and Khris Middleton, sources say. The Bucks have not yet put a first-round pick on the table, sources say, but the bet here is that they would to get the deal done -- or if Irving showed any interest in staying in Milwaukee long-term. A pick from the Bucks, an almost certain playoff team in the junior varsity conference, carries no blue-chip equity. An unprotected pick from Phoenix would, but bad teams a half-decade away from relevance don't deal picks for stars who make them slightly less bad before bolting in free agency. Other likely lottery teams -- Sacramento, Atlanta, Indiana, Chicago -- don't appear to have made offers. Denver was the one team in the sweet spot to go all-in with an offer of Wilson Chandler, Jamal Murray (the blue-chipper), and at least one first-round pick. They are at little risk of coughing up a top-10 pick, with a need at point guard and a roster that generally fits Irving's aging curve. Denver never ventured nearly that far. There are obvious reasons for their reluctance: Irving's free agency in 2019, the Warriors, the challenge of building a defense book-ended by Irving and Nikola Jokic, the expense of an Irving-Jokic-Gary Harris core. (Jokic's defensive deficiencies have been overstated.) Cleveland may have concluded that package didn't bring LeBron enough present-day help. But unless Irving's representatives made it clear he would not stay in Denver long-term, the Nuggets might be the one team who should have thought harder about challenging Boston. Phoenix was never moving Josh Jackson, and there is minimal Irving buzz around them now. Minnesota stands as a wild card until Andrew Wiggins signs the five-year max offer reportedly in front of him. ... If Anthony Davis becomes available -- and the Celtics' eyes are very much trained on him -- Boston could throw together a package more compelling than just about anyone else's. Irving would be an indirect part of that package. The NBA's superstar class respects his ballsy showman's game. (Ainge has long liked Irving more than most of his peers for some of the same reasons, sources say.) Beyond Davis, it's hard to pinpoint the next star players who might become available at Irving's age and merit a motherlode offer -- another reason to target Irving now.
I agree with Thomas having little to no value if the trade is rescinded, but i don't agree when you say that Thomas is a problem in the lockeroom for Boston while Irving isn't for the Cavs, i mean, Irving doesn't want to be in the tc to begin with, if that's not a problem...Crowder btw is still a pretty good role player with a fantastic contract, they will still get value for him easily. We also don't know what other offers the Cavs have on the table, but i think they have nothing as good if the rumors about the Suns offer are true and if the Cavs decided to deal with their number one rival in the conference. That said, i don't really know what they could get for Crowder and Nets pick, but players like Cousins, George, Drummond (even if i'd stay away) can still be available later in the season, maybe others, and they would be able to get one of them easily with that package.
Generally agree. Was just pointing out that in this scenario its got a Celtics have done IT dirty feel to it, whereas on the other hand its the player wanting out. Indeed in both cases it will be awkward. However I think regardless of whether there is a better package on the table or not, Kyrie is being moved, either for this deal or the next one. That's not the case for IT... and being that he has the lingering injury thing, and is a contract year, it can get messy fast. Absolutely this was the best offer. But part of what made it not just the best offer, but far and away the best offer... was IT!!! He's been criminally underrated in the post-trade analysis, as media experts and the like note how you have to give up a lot to get a young star stud player like Kyrie... all while forgetting that IT was CLEARLY and OBVIOUSLY better than Kyrie last year. Better scorer, better leader, better clutch player. And basically the same defender. Him being so short, being 28/29, being in a contract year, last year being a peak season so far for him, etc. were all the reasons why he wasn't nearly as valuable alone as Kyrie. But IT was better. A chance to get better at that position, add Jae Crowder, and get a future first. No brainer. But lose IT, and it's just a role player and future first and that's not equitable. IT played through his sister dying... Irving appears to have been partying before game 1 of the Finals. Probably at the trade deadline, sure. But the above wasn't to disparage Kyrie. He is a great player AND under the right tutelage, somewhere he wants to be, he absolutely can grow, and can grow in the area that is most important for him - leadership. Meanwhile if Boogie or PG are available it's because (1) it's not working in their spots, or (2) they are likely to bolt elsewhere. I get that Boston is a different animal than OKC... but if OKC is going to trade PG before the deadline, where trading for him was basically the only way they salvaged their franchise from a complete rebuild, it's because they know with 99.9% certainty that he's bolting to LA. The Celtics already don't want Boogie. Andre Drummond?!?! Lol. Also bear in mind there will be a bit more certainty around the Nets pick at that point. I'm not one who thinks the Nets have much chance at being better, but if they improved to a #5-#8 type pick it wouldn't be shocking. That craters the value of that pick. Of course conversely it might be clear it will definitively be a top 3 pick. Risky gamble for the Celtics and whomever trades for the pick indeed. Of course there will always be some solid players on the move. I can see more realistic trade candidates as Blake, Marc Gasol. Blake if things aren't going well in LAC land and Jerry West immediately moves on to get value. That deal would have to be something like Al Horford + Nets pick for Blake, with the Celtics left with Blake, Hayward, Crowder, the 2 young guys, Smart and IT (lol). They don't seem meaningfully better, imo. I think Marc Gasol is perhaps the most intriguing potential piece. I've never been a huge fan of his lumbering, meandering type game. But I suspect he'd do VERY well in a Brad Stevens disciplined system, and most importantly if he's on the move it's because the Grizzlies have meaningfully regressed - or stayed the same as a bunch of teams pass them (wolves, nuggets, blazers... maybe pelics) - and the writing is on the wall. I think basically the same package could then get them Gasol... IT would almost be a salary inclusion at that point. If they could find a way to do the deal and keep IT that'd be better. However you look at it, though, in no scenario does it really seem to make the Celtics better than where'd they be if they get Kyrie. They absolutely have to have this deal go through, imo. And most interestingly of all, nobody has a crystal ball, but if Ainge figured he'd probably move the 18 Nets pick, move Crowder, Bradley and be open to moving IT (injury issue aside), while also still losing Amir and Olynyk ... while going into the offseason with the 17 #1 pick the #18 Nets pick... I just feel like the Celtics could/should be much better positioned at this point.
@JayZ750 good points. I just think the Cavs cannot pass the Nets pick, Crowder and Zizic cause reports were always saying they were looking to get assets for a rebuild most of all, if that's the case, this package, even with a semi-injured Thomas is still perfect for them, especially if the Suns just offered Bledsoe with fillers and if the Nuggets (which would be a great partner here imo) are not willing to deal Murray. It seems like there are not other offers as good as this one for the Cavs considering what they're looking for.
Ok... but you noted that the Celtics could just wait and deal Crowder/Nets 1st during the season. What's better for opposing teams - Irving, or the Crowder/Nets 1st? For any package you mentioned, or I mentioned, Irving will be the better asset. Cavs should be more incentivized to wait it out, imo. If the Cavs end up trading Irving, with 2 years left, for what becomes Jae Crowder and a 5-10 pick... that's a disaster. Lebron leaves, and they're a middling team, likely not in the playoffs, but also not so horrible. Even if rebuild is their #1 goal, they're not and nobody should be discounting the 2017/2018 season. Even losing in the Finals would put them at 4 straight Finals and winning one for an organization that is otherwise an afterthought in NBA history. The Rockets obviously haven't been to the Finals in 20+ years. Some teams have never been to the Finals. This deal was so good for the Cavs because it not only got them back to the Finals but upped their low chances of stealing another ring from the GSW, while also giving them rebuild potential.
Yeah i get what you're saying, would also be good to know if they know Lebron is gone and if they know they can't get a similar deal with the urgency of trading Irving, the latter i think is the most important part, and i'd say the reason why the Cavs have not rescinded the trade yet, i mean, they can try and maybe they will get something more, but i don't really see Ainge throwing another 1st rounder or Brown/Tatum here, maybe a 2nd rounder...and let's say they'll get it, are they really going to lose Nets unprotected 1st + Crowder + Zizic + 2nd rounder cause Thomas is not 100% and out for few months? I just don't see it...the East is soo bad that Lebron alone without Love and IT would probably lead them to the conference finals, having Thomas out few months shouldn't be a big problem.
if this deal is voided i wouldn't be surprised that a team who can wait until late in the reg season and need another star to help them make a push in the playoffs and has equivalent asset to an injured most of the year & 1 yr rental to try and trade for IT raps, wiz, spurs, clips, okc come into mind (I don't know what they'll have to offer but I'm pretty sure they can wait and think IT will give them a chance against GSW
I think the big question is out a few months... or out all season/when it matters?? From what I heard about this injury is it's somewhat of a crapshoot or you can do the surgery and then definitively out a certain number of months. It sounds like absent this being a contract year they probably would have done the surgery. As is, last year, he was fine most of the year then missed the last few games of the playoffs. If I'm he Cavs I push for the Celtics 2018 first round pick (start higher, settle for that). But as you note what Lebron wants to do is key. And they'll never know that because while Lebron has given his all for Cleveland... he also always is positioning his next move and isn't about to tell the Cavs "yeah I'm probably leaving" so they can focus exclusively on getting most future value for Kyrie at the expense of getting no current value... which helps Lebron more.
Do ppl really think this way? That sounds like theories fans toss out which have no chance to be proven right/wrong, but lend some type of credence to the position the debater wants to argue. inb4: "But it makes total sense IT would risk consequences of hiding pain in hopes it gets better." Better to play and make excuses for drop in productions, than have surgery and remove all doubt. Is that how the thinking goes? I don't think I've ever heard an all star player actually saying, I'm playing through the pain in hopes it gets better, because this is my contract year, and I have to prove myself. Can't see a star Ignoring his doctor's advice like that ... this isn't back surgery where'd you'd get differing opinions.
I'm maybe thinking you haven't looked into this injury. This isn't my way of thinking. This is verbatim what a leading doctor said on xm radio nab channel 2 days ago. It's apparently an injury where they've learned a lot more about it the last 15 years and there's different ways to approach it. so yes, there are different approached. he gave an analogy to ARod, who had the same injury, was given two options, chose to do something minor and then play through it (or something like that) and get the larger surgery later... only to ultimately not need the larger surgery, He also noted its the type of injury where once a guy stops playing basketball so regularly, will feel a lot better, but then when he starts up again, it can feel good for a while, or some random freak bump or hit can result in tons of pain again... like what happened to IT this past year. In any case, the doctor speculated that absent the contract year, IT would have opted for the surgery.
