Kubiak and Wade Phillips are 7-0 and Rick Smith is.....

He was terrible when they won the big one, actually - check his numbers that postseason.

You can't have your cake and eat it, too. If he's the driving force behind regular season success (which I wouldn't dispute; the guy is an all-time QB), overcoming ALL those years being coached by Jim Caldwell, you can't suddenly not hold him accountable for playing terribly and losing more games than he has won in the postseason.

Yes, Nick, because in order to not make Peyton's postseason failures look as bad, we had to throw out 9 of Brady's postseason wins...

In the regular season, Brady's winning % is 78; in the postseason, it's 72. And, FYI, even throwing out 9 wins, a) Brady has more total wins (12) than Manning (11) in 4 fewer games; b) owns a significantly better winning % (60 to 46). In fact, Brady's winning percentage (minus those 9 Ws), which you termed not "all that great" and "decidedly worse" translates to 10 wins in an NFL season; his current regular season winning % = 12 wins/season. Peyton? His regualr season winning % = 11 Ws/season; his playoff winning % = 7 Ws/season. That, Nick, is "decidedly worse."

Peyton Manning is setting that expectation, Nick; not me... If you win 71% of your regular season games, you should be expected to win more than 46% of your games in the postseason.

.... OK, Nick.... Just continue to ignore than Manning was 1-for-7 in SB appearances under Tony Dungy...

 

Was pretty good in the comeback game against the Pats... was mediocre in the monsoon game vs. Chicago.... which goes along with the mixed bag his post-season has been.

Absolutely a lot of his playoff failures lay at the feet of his own abilities (or lack thereof).... he's accountable.

But mixed bag with a title is far different than complete post-season failure/top 5 worst all time.

For some reason, you seem to be starting every paragraph in your responses to me like this... not sure why you're doing it, or if you even know you're doing it... its probably about as annoying as when everybody uses your real name when they post replies to you (which really doesn't make much sense as it was your handle for years... if everybody here knows its your name, why not respond to it?).

By no means was this meant to be a Brady vs. Manning debate... its not. But you asked if other QB's can consistently come up short in the post-season... and Brady had a 10 year run between 2004 and 2014 with plenty of post-season appearances, and zero SB wins.

Not necessarily... tougher competition, fewer games... sample size issues happen/matter. Was he a playoff "head-case" who was unable to win it all? No.

Actually, he was 1-for-1 in SB's with Dungy (which is really what this entire conversation is about... as if he just wins one more SB out of the 3 he's been in, and apparently he's no longer a "failure"?)... and there you go saying my name again... do you think you're responding to somebody else when you're responding to me? Or is it just a nervous tic?

 

On a side not regarding the Texans Broncos blah...john Harris on sr610 is horrific. He literally said in short that he's glad the Texans were an organization that didn't have to worry about having guys like talib poking eyes...I was was like really bro? You'd rather be 3-5 with no clear future at quarterback, running back, offensive line, front office and coaching than have to worry about your cornerback be suspended for one game because he poked a dudes eye and be 6-1....to me that epitomizes this organization and what a clown show sports radio is.

 

And also who the hell actually listens or is interested that trash john Harris and the Texans put out there, over glorifying a trash organization

 

Apparently Harris goes way back with BOB

 

Never would have heard of him... if you hadn't posted that.

 

Sorry; is your name not Nick, Nick?

a) throwing out 30% of a QB's playoff experience wasn't a condition I set; b) even if we do that (because it's the ONLY way you can find an upper-echelon QB that's been even remotely in Manning's stratosphere), Brady's results are STILL significantly better than Manning's.

It's been a knock on Peyton Manning since college.

... I very clearly stated he's 1-for-7 in SB *appearances*.

And when/where did I ever say, "one more SB out of the 3 he's been in, and apparently he's no longer a "failure""? Never said that. It would certainly balance out all the not-Super Bowls he's won, I guess - but he'd still only be 12-12 overall and he'd still have nine 1-and-dones, six of which were home games.

 

Peyton will win it this year and next (two-peat) and establish himself as the greatest ever.

Book it.

Has Brady ever done anything without Belichick or without cheating?

 

I have no idea why you're nit-picking or cherry-picking sample sizes and stats. Nobody asked you to do that either, so not sure who set your conditions that you claim you didn't set.

Brady went through 10 years of playoff appearances with zero SB's. You wanted an example of a SB that consistently makes the playoffs every year and doesn't win it all. You can add Moon, Fouts, Elway, Marino all to that list as well. Again, only an anal-retentive fool would judge all of their careers on post-season alone.

and in the end, this was never about Brady vs. Manning... simply about figuring out if Manning is the worst post-season NFL QB ever (which he isn't).

That's really cool... do you have what Spurrier said after Manning won the SB? Was his "head-case-ism" that he suffered from since college magically cured when he was throwing game-winning lasers to beat the Patriots in comeback fashion in the AFC championship game? Nah...

And Manning didn't make the SB 7 times.

We wouldn't be having this discussion with 2 SB wins in 3 "appearances", would we? And if so, you'd be having it with yourself.

 

Wait... are you trolling me?...

I asked if there were any upper-echelon QBs with a postseason track record as poor as Manning's... the answer, of course, is no. YOUR answer was, Sure, if you throw out this, or disregard that...... IOW, you did exactly what you're incredibly accusing me of doing.

What's truly bananas is even with you re-calibrating the sample sizes as you see fit, you STILL can't find an upper echelon QB with a postseason track record as poor as Manning's.

In relation to expectations, he's certainly among the worst. I suppose, technically... TJ Yates is worse... but if we're having to pull TJ Yates out to prop up Manning...

Oh, so... one game, in which his team scored 38 points and he threw as many "laser" touchdowns as he did decidedly not-laser interceptions invalidates every "postseason failure" argument, re: Peyton Manning? Gotcha.

Do me a favor, reread your opening line in this response, the one about cherry-picking and sample sizes and then revisit this insane comment...

It's still a viable discussion, yeah. Again, he's won 71% of his regular season games while setting nearly every imaginable passing record; he's been to the playoffs 14 times, including 12 straight years and he has universally played worse and won far less often.

Given his overall greatness and consistent success, even a second SB wouldn't cover-up that his overall body of work, spanning two organizations and soon-to-be five head coaches, in the postseason has been disappointing.

 

I never said "throw out this, that, etc."... I simply said yes, there have been QB's with stretches where they didn't win the SB every year (which is the apparent biggest accusation against Manning... that he's only won one SB despite the gaudy regular season numbers).

And, Brady's 10 years with zero SB's were ripe for questioning going into last year's SB... that he was a game-saving interception away from losing.

You can relax your ego... nobody is trolling you.

We've already named 5 possibly worse HOF-caliber ones (in terms of playoff appearances with little to no SB success)... Moon, Fouts, Marino, Kelly, Favre (Tarkenton, Rivers...). But yeah, nobody's going to match Manning's playoff appearances... I guess he should have been worse all those years, and not made the playoffs.

You're getting bent out of shape at that... when you're the one supporting your standpoint with a quote from a now-defunct college coach from 20 years ago who couldn't have been more wrong about Manning's pro prospects? Still waiting for the daily Spurrier Manning update.

Eh... there's no single player, no matter how great they are, that's going to consistently win it all in today's NFL playoffs... and as it is, he actually did win it all.

And if that's the standard you hold your players to, its comical to look back and see how you defended yourself against those criticizing Matt Schlub's sometimes-hollow numbers. (which I actually agreed with you... I just think you're totally off-base on this topic, which in summary does not have Manning as a head-case who can't figure out how post-season football works).

 

"stretches..." as in cherry-picking, reducing sample sizes... we don't have to cherry-pick or reduce sample sizes with Manning. It has been overall underwhelming and, based on expectations he has set as a record-breaking regular season QB, disappointing.

Here are the numbers:

Warren Moon
Regular Season Winning %: 50
Postseason Winning %: 30
Regular Season QB rating: 80.9
Postseason QB rating: 84.9
# of playoff years | SB Appearances: 7 | 0

Dan Fouts
Regular Season Winning %: 51
Postseason Winning %: 43
Regular Season QB rating: 80.2
Postseason QB rating: 70
# of playoff years | SB Appearances: 4 | 0

Dan Marino
Regular Season Winning %: 61
Postseason Winning %: 44
Regular Season QB rating: 86.4
Postseason QB rating: 77.1
# of playoff years | SB Appearances: 10 | 1

Jim Kelly
Regular Season Winning %: 63
Postseason Winning %: 53
Regular Season QB rating: 84.4
Postseason QB rating: 72.3
# of playoff years | SB Appearances: 8 | 4

Brett Favre
Regular Season Winning %: 62
Postseason Winning %: 54
Regular Season QB rating: 86.0
Postseason QB rating: 86.3
# of playoff years | SB Appearances: 12 | 2

Peyton Manning
Regular Season Winning %: 71
Postseason Winning %: 46
Regular Season QB rating: 96.8
Postseason QB rating: 88.5
# of playoff years | SB Appearances: 14 | 3

We can push and back forth on the order, but Manning comfortably belongs on the list; in fact, I'd argue he's vying with Dan Marino for most disappointing, based on individual and team accomplishments. (Favre does not belong on the list, IMO.)

No - I'm bent out of shape at the idea that you think *I'm* cherry-picking when you're citing a single playoff game in the face of my citing 23 others. The Spurrier comment was a) funny; b) confirms the "choke" label has been on Manning since college. BTW, it's not just me, or Steve Spurrier...:

And yet, you want to give him credit for consistently winning in the regular season...

Who said he's a head-case? I don't even know what that means... I think, like Schaub, actually (but on a much larger scale), he plays tighter, presses more and generally underperforms when the spotlight is brighter. It's been the knock on him for literally two decades now; it's as if you've never heard it before.

There's nothing hollow about his (or Schaub's numbers, frankly - why are you bringing Schaub up, again?) - thinking about it... I don't know the order, but he'd be there with Montana and Brady as the best QBs I've ever seen play. But comparing their postseason resumes is not really fair to Peyton Manning...

 

First of all, I'd avoid putting "any" QB that has won a SB on a list of most disappointing post-season QB's... choosing who "belongs" and who doesn't is entirely arbitrary. You're basing it entirely on playoff wins/losses which we've already established that Manning is a victim of his own regular season success in that regard.

In in that sense, why wouldn't you put Favre on the list? Double digit playoff years, only 2 SB's (less than Manning), only one win.... a host of regular-season induced records.

But kudos to you for taking the time to look up all the stats to create this mythical/abritrary list that features players that never even played in a SB... let alone win one... and trying to group them with players that did.

It wasn't that funny... was completely irrelevant to the conversation at hand... and again, did Manning suddenly forget how to choke when he actually played and won Super Bowls?

No... I want to give him credit for playing in 3 SB's and winning one... something that usually vindicates players from being all-time "chokers" and playoff "failures".

You joined the conversation late.

At no point have I ever claimed he's some post-season "god"... that there's a lot of wiggle room between that and post-season failure, of which Manning completely sits in his mixed-bag results that while they're decidedly worse than his regular season resume, and definitely could be considered underachieving, are far from top 5 worst playoff performers "ever".

 

Saying it wasn't that funny means you think was a little funny

Unless they're the All-Time one-and-done leader

Wilt won 2 rings and is still considered a playoff choke

In the postseason spectrum, Manning is much closer to a "failure" than a "god"

Just taking at his SBs into account, he's subpar.
Wins one by 12 as a 7-point favorite (CHI)... good job
Loses one by 14 as a 5-point favorite (NO)... horrible job
Loses one by 35 as a 2-point favorite (SEA)... all-time horrible job

Even within his SBs, he's a choke

On top of that, when considering total playoff perfomance, adding the one-and-done aspect makes it beyond reasonable doubt he's a playoff choke and a headcase.

Peyton isn't even a Top 10 "hypothetical scenario" playoff QB.

 

Yeah... sure they do. And kudos to having absolutely zero clue on how to use the word "choke". I'll also be waiting for your "hypothetical scenario" NBA Playoff list that has Robert Horry above Wilt Chamberlain.

Correct.. he's in between. A mixed bag who's had both playoff failure and playoff success.

Not sure he can be a verb...

I highly doubt I've raised "unreasonable" doubt in here... but it is beyond a reasonable doubt you have no idea what a head-case or a "choke" really is.

Well, of course he isn't... just yesterday you had him as the worst ever... why would you even need to make the above qualifying statement if it was beyond reasonable doubt?

 

Expectations (stemming from the regular season) must be considered.

Horry has never been a #1. Wilt has. But better to have Horry as a 3rd option than Wilt as a 1st in the postseason.

Final shot-wise, the answer is just as clear.

If failure = 0 and god = 10, both 2 and 8 are technically "in between", but we know there's a huge difference between the two.

Let me assure you.

choke
CHōk/Submit

verb
1.
(of a person or animal) have severe difficulty in breathing because of a constricted or obstructed throat or a lack of air.
"Willie choked on a mouthful of soda"
synonyms: gag, retch, cough, fight for breath
"Christopher started to choke"
2.
fill (a passage or space), especially so as to make movement difficult or impossible.
"the roads were choked with traffic"
synonyms: clog (up), stop up, block, obstruct, plug, bung up; technicalocclude
"the gutters were choked with leaves"

noun
1.
a valve in the carburetor of a gasoline engine that is used to reduce the amount of air in the fuel mixture when the engine is started.
2.
an action or sound of a person or animal having or seeming to have difficulty in breathing.
"a little choke of laughter"

Yesterday, I said he wasn't Top 5. Now, after thinking about it more, he isn't even Top 10.

I also said, yesterday, he was the greatest regular season QB ever.

Being the greatest before the playoffs, then not being Top 10 after New Years = a postseason choke and headcase.

 

Let me ask you a question... if, in addition to winning percentage, I've also consistently mentioned/listed QB rating... just how, exactly, did you determine I was basing my opinion "entirely on playoff wins/losses"? Just curious...

Unlike Manning, 1) he has an overall winning record in the postseason; 2) he hasn't played poorly - generally, or relative to his regular season standard - in the postseason. In fact, his postseason QB rating is actually *better* than his regular season QB rating.

I used the players you provided - but thanks!...

It's irrelevant that the "choke" label has followed Peyton Manning for nearly 20 years when we're having a discussion about Peyton Manning choking?...

Fair enough; I disagree - again: his own success, which has been monumental, creates a much greater standard and he has - far more often than not, and very often at his own hand - failed to live up to it.

His career QB rating is 96.8; he has bested that in just 7 of his 24 playoff starts. He's actually been sub-80 in 9 starts and sub-70 in four. If you apply his postseason TD pace (38 in 935 attempts) to his regular season totals (9,351 - how incredibly symmetrical), he would have thrown 159 fewer TD in his career*.

* (To be fair, 7 fewer interceptions.)

 

And if he played the Patriots and Belichick as much in the regular season... as he does in the post-season... he'd have far worse career numbers as well.

Disagreed on Brett Favre... just because he was worse in the regular season than Manning, and set a lower expectation, doesn't make him any more successful in the post-season... with the same 1 SB championship over 12 playoff appearances. Additionally, his QB playoff rating is worse than Manning's.... so he's a worse QB in the regular season as well as post-season, hasn't won more SB's, and actually appeared in one less. Sure, he won a few more wild card games that Manning never played in.

At least we agree that any QB who's able to get to 3 SB's (one at an advanced age) and win it all is not simply a playoff "head-case".

We'll just have to disagree that Manning should not simply be judged as a failure in large part because of his year-to-year excellence that afforded him that many playoff chances to begin with.

 

Would he?....

Peyton Manning v. Bill Belichick
Regular Season (15 games): 369/581 (64%); 4,441 yards; 35 TD; 19 INT; 7.6 YPA; 93.3 QBR
Postseason (4 games): 109/179 (61%); 1,224 yards; 4 TD; 6 INT; 6.8 YPA; 74.8 QBR

Yet another example of playoff Peyton Manning being significantly worse than regular season Peyton Manning - based on parameters you set, no less. But probably just a coincidence...

ETA
Peyton Manning Actual Career Numbers v. Peyton Manning's Career Numbers Using Regular Season Pace v Belichick
(65%); 71,836 yards; 539 TD; 247 INT; 7.7 YPA; 96.8 QBR
(64%); 71,476 yards; 563 TD; 305 INT; 7.6 YPA; 93.3 QBR

Still one of the two or three greatest QBs in NFL history; still a no-doubt, first ballot HoF; still significantly worse numbers/results in the playoffs.

 

Nobody is arguing that fact.... he is worse in the playoffs.

All-time worst? Head-case? Biggest "choker"? All impossible to me since he won a SB and played in 2 others.... similar to other all-time greats who finally broke through and won the big one (Elway, Young, Favre).

But those were good stats you posted above... were those all Colts vs. Pats, or were they dating back to Belicheck's other teams?