You might want to take a look at some of Wilt and Kareem's stats before you start calling Shaq the most dominant one on one force ever. Shaq wasn't so dominate that he was ever able to win a ring without Kobe or Wade on his team. I'd gladly take the Bulls teams over any of the Shaq Lakers rosters.
# Games without an assist" is a completely meaningless stat without context. Mark West did it 685 times, is he the most selfish player in history? If the point is "Kobe is a selfish b*stard", how did Fisher, his team-first teammate, do it nearly twice as much in the same length career? There are 219 guards in NBA history who have done it more times than Bryant. If you want to give some teeth to your message, you have to provide some context. Say... In multiple seasons, from 1985-86 to 2012-13, in the regular season, played G, requiring Assists <= 0 and Field Goal Attempts >= 15, sorted by most games matching criteria. <table class="MsoNormalTable" style="mso-cellspacing:1.5pt; mso-yfti-tbllook:1184" id="stats" border="0" cellpadding="0"> <tbody><tr style="mso-yfti-irow:0;mso-yfti-firstrow:yes" data-row="0"> <td style="padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt"> 1 </td> <td style="padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt"> Jeff Malone </td> <td style="padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt"> G </td> <td style="padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt"> 1986 </td> <td style="padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt"> 1994 </td> <td style="padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt"> 41 </td> </tr> <tr style="mso-yfti-irow:1" data-row="1"> <td style="padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt"> 2 </td> <td style="padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt"> Michael Redd </td> <td style="padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt"> G </td> <td style="padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt"> 2002 </td> <td style="padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt"> 2012 </td> <td style="padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt"> 38 </td> </tr> <tr style="mso-yfti-irow:2" data-row="2"> <td style="padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt"> 3 </td> <td style="padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt"> Allan Houston </td> <td style="padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt"> G </td> <td style="padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt"> 1995 </td> <td style="padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt"> 2004 </td> <td style="padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt"> 33 </td> </tr> <tr style="mso-yfti-irow:3" data-row="3"> <td style="padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt"> 4 </td> <td style="padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt"> Ray Allen </td> <td style="padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt"> G </td> <td style="padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt"> 1997 </td> <td style="padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt"> 2011 </td> <td style="padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt"> 23 </td> </tr> <tr style="mso-yfti-irow:4" data-row="4"> <td style="padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt"> 5 </td> <td style="padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt"> Cuttino Mobley </td> <td style="padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt"> G </td> <td style="padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt"> 2000 </td> <td style="padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt"> 2009 </td> <td style="padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt"> 21 </td> </tr> <tr style="mso-yfti-irow:5" data-row="5"> <td style="padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt"> 6 </td> <td style="padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt"> Mitch Richmond </td> <td style="padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt"> G </td> <td style="padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt"> 1990 </td> <td style="padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt"> 2001 </td> <td style="padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt"> 20 </td> </tr> <tr style="mso-yfti-irow:6" data-row="6"> <td style="padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt"> 7 </td> <td style="padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt"> Jason Richardson </td> <td style="padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt"> G </td> <td style="padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt"> 2003 </td> <td style="padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt"> 2012 </td> <td style="padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt"> 18 </td> </tr> <tr style="mso-yfti-irow:7" data-row="7"> <td style="padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt"> 8 </td> <td style="padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt"> Kobe Bryant </td> <td style="padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt"> G </td> <td style="padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt"> 1998 </td> <td style="padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt"> 2013 </td> <td style="padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt"> 16 </td> </tr> <tr style="mso-yfti-irow:8" data-row="8"> <td style="padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt"> 9 </td> <td style="padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt"> Rolando Blackman </td> <td style="padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt"> G </td> <td style="padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt"> 1986 </td> <td style="padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt"> 1992 </td> <td style="padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt"> 15 </td> </tr> <tr style="mso-yfti-irow:9;mso-yfti-lastrow:yes" data-row="9"> <td style="padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt"> 10 </td> <td style="padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt"> Dell Curry </td> <td style="padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt"> G </td> <td style="padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt"> 1988 </td> <td style="padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt"> 1999 </td> <td style="padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt"> 15 </td> </tr> </tbody></table> Now, at least you have some historical context for your "point": Bryant shuts out his teammates on a level usually reserved for high-quality spot-up shooters. You can have a discussion from there. You can't without the context.
Nobody does it alone, it's a silly argument. Look at the Bulls roster, there isn't a Wilt or a Kareem on them. A prime Shaq is the most physically imposing post player EVER & the lead dog on those Lakers Championship teams. He was truly unique. Nobody on the Bulls roster could guard him. It would've been interesting between those two teams. BTW, IMO: 1. Kareem 2. Wilt 3. Olajuwon 4. Shaq
You've changed your stance on Shaq. And I'm not really sure what that statement is suppose to really mean if you have him ranked as the 5th best center. 1v1 I'd rather have all of the guys you listed above except maybe Wilt because I haven't seen enough tape on him to have a real opinion. As far as guarding Shaq goes they could have let Shaq get his but outside of him the Lakers would have had serious problems creating offense. The Bulls had Pippen, BJ and Tony K when Jordan left. I'm not trying to downplay how good Shaq was but I don't think the Bulls outside of Jordan get nearly as much respect as they deserve. The 93-94 Bulls teams was very good.
He's not on the team. My discussion was about the supporting casts meaning the teams without Kobe and Jordan. The 93-94 Bulls didn't replace Jordan with anyone. You take Kobe off any Lakers team and you let them play that Bulls team.
That's a disingenuous statement. The 93-94 Bulls got rid of a lot of scrubs and replaced them with solid rotational players like Kukoc, Luc Longley, Bill Wennington, and Steve Kerr.
I was referring to the two guard position but if you want to discuss it that way then we can. When Jordan came back all of those players remained and became part of the supporting cast he had for his second championship run. Don't see how that really changes what I am debating.
Anyone know what the win/loss ratio is, among all those 151 (or whatever the correct number is) games without an assist? They used to always show lakers' records when kobe scores greater than some particular scoring benchmark, like 30, and sometimes it'd be much better when he actually scores lower. Just curious.
It's clear what I'm talking about if you read I originally posted in this thread and then just clarified with Tex but I realize you are going to be a dick because this is a Kobe thread
Here's part of what you said: and then you said: At this point, I thought you were talking about supporting casts. But then you said you were only talking about shooting guards. Which doesn't make sense...
