Dirk also had a 67 win team and lost in the 1st round. last year's run makes dirk hard to categorize. his playoff stats actually weren't any better than several other playoffs he's been in, and yet the mavs just seemed like a team of destiny. after that collapse against portland, they seemingly shot 100% in every close 4th quarter for about 2 straight months. it was ridiculous. deshawn stevenson shot 50% on 3's in the finals! a guy who has had negative Win Shares 6 different seasons (doing it once is pretty damn hard) shot 50% on 3's in the finals! so do we drastically alter our opinion of dirk for basically joining hakeem and duncan on the 1-star championship team leader list? do we factor in just how crazy and probably unrepeatable it was? what about the fact dirk's playoff stats and performance far exceeded his playoff reputation before last year? while garnett actually has been a pretty poor playoff performer. or the fact garnett just kills dirk in term's of defensive impact? i don't know. like durvasa said, they might both be underrated historically. isiah and stockton don't belong in that 3rd group. by the late 80's, isiah was like the rich man's chauncey billups of those detroit teams with a really high one game performance ceiling (crazy that detroit has 2 championship teams separated by about 15 years and yet both are basically constructed the same - no superstar, 2 scoring backcourt players, physical, defensive-minded frontcourt players, tough as nails overall teams with great defenses) and he didn't play particularly long. and barkley is definitely in the 3rd group. and if you switch those guys, i'm not sure kg and dirk aren't better than everybody in the 4th group. i can't really speak about pettit and barry (although pettit's numbers are great) but i don't think i take anybody else in that group over kg and dirk.
Both reputations are badly tainted by their early playoffs failures. Dirk for choking the Heat 06 and against the Warriors. KG failed to lead the Wolves past 1st rounds for 6-7 years.
KG and Dirk are great power forwards, but I wouldn't take them over a center, like Ewing or David Robinson. By nature of being exceptional point guard, I honestly think Stockton and Thomas had greater impact than Dirk offensively, not sure about the more well-rounded KG. THe last NBA Finals has really clouded people's perceptions about Nowitzki. He's mostly a scorer/shooter, while his post game is alright. Moreover, he's not a fantastic rebounder or defender, like a number of great power forwards. I'd he's slightly below average to modest at best in both categories. Dirk, I cannot say he was a better power forward than Barkley, McHale, Hayes, Pettit, or even Webber. Of all of the players in that group, he's arguably the least well-rounded. As good as Dirk is, there's no way I would take him over Hondo (Havlicek), who I think should be higher. Defense and rebounding is what kills Dirk, while he's always been on some really good teams. I laugh when people say he has never had a good team around him. KG is the little bit more sure, because he was maestro at almost every phase of the game. Versatile offensive player, elite defender (can guard all five positions), great rebounding player, great passer, played above the rim, great shotblocker, boxes out, and etc. Across the board he ranks high against power forwards and players at other position. Moreover, did he make his teams better than say Isiah Thomas, John Stockton, David Robinson, Patrick Ewing, Dr. J, Clyde Drexler, Rick Barry, Dominique Wilkins. It's really a perspective thing. Like, I think they comparing Isiah Thomas to Chauncey Billups is a big stretch, especially since I don't think Billups ever had that type of scoring ability, explosiveness, and play-making ability. In fact, before the title days, the only point guards who had number that rivaled Isiah in scoring and assists were Magic and Oscar Robertson. Even to this day, the only players, I've seen who scored in bunches, gather assists, and make plays like magician are Deron Williams, Kevin Johnson (briefly), and Chris Paul. Isiah also had a number of memorable playoff runs and performances, he's more legendary for a reason than alot of these players.
Absolute bias. KG played on very bad teams until he came to Boston. Dirk played with a lot of talent. If Tyson hadn't joined the Mavs,Dirk would be without a ring because of average defense and rebounding. Dirk is a better offensive player,but KG was a better all round player.
KG is one of the greatest all around players of all-time, elite defender, great rebounder, 20+ scoring in the post or stepping outside. KG's career over Dirk's anyday. KG can't be too far behind Tim Duncan either.
Certainly top 20 forwards. It's tough to say without doing some research because there is a good 30-40 yrs of basketball I wasn't around to see. Dirk is on my top 20 list of all time greatest, KG falls short, he only led his team to the playoffs like one time that I can remember. Then he only wins one ring in Boston with a team 5x better. Honest answer requested: Would Yao be in the top 20 greatest players...not centers?
Think of the impacts they had on the game. Dirk gave hope to all children without basic motor skills that they could one day be a Finals MVP. Suck it Lin.
i'd say yes. i'd say there's 13 players he can't go over without a ring: mj, magic, larry, russell, kareem, shaq, wilt, hakeem, oscar, west, kobe, duncan, moses (not my order, just listing them). after that, you're largely dealing with greats who didn't win rings like barkley and malone or didn't win them in their prime as the best player on the team like kg, robinson, baylor or erving. i guess you can argue longevity but none of the remaining guys did what lebron has done in the regular season and can't really claim any extra playoff success since they don't have the rings or the playoff numbers on lebron. so he could be as high as maybe 14 right now. maybe 17 or 18 if you want to say he's got to put in 10+ years to pass some of these guys.
i don't want to just be a numbers guy but dirk's number really do compare well with lots of great players. although i do think things like PER and even win shares favor offensive players over defensive players and maybe win shares likes efficiency too much (the people who made it are a lot smarte than I am so maybe efficiency really is that important) and those are both dirk's biggest strengths, he still looks great on both those measures. and maybe more importantly, just his conventional playoff stats are great. go look at shaq's points and rebounds in the playoffs. then look at hakeem's. then look at dirk's. i don't know quite where dirk's numbers are now, but as of a few years ago all 3 were right next to each other. maybe robinson is still better than dirk but he fell off so much in the playoffs that he took what should have been a runaway and made it a close race. but dirk was way ahead of thomas in efficiency, dirk being above average and thomsa below i believe. with huge volume. stockton was really efficient but didn't have the volume. and let's face it, as great as stockton was (excuse me while i vomit), playing with malone and in jerry sloan's system is certainly a good way to get those assist totals up. i think howad eisley looked respectable for a few years in utah. and stockton also wasn't that good in the playoffs versus his regular season performance. on the one hand, that seems true. he's not a great rebounder, by all accounts he's not a great defender, and he's not a great passer (as the golden state series made painfully obvious) who orchestrates the offense. and yet he actually becomes a very nice rebounder in the playoffs somehow and the offense always seems to be much better when he's on the court, even if he's not running it. his plus/minus last year i think was astronomical in the regular season and the playoffs. as much as we talk about what a surprise dallas was, if dirk didn't miss 9 games where dallas went 2-7 the mavs might have had the best record in the league. again, not to just go to numbers but hondo cracked a 20 on PER like 3 or 4 times in his whole career. PER may not be everything, but the greats tend to fly by 20 and do it for most of their prime. unless hondo is just the exception, he doesn't come out looking as good as dirk. he's definitely played on some loaded, high payroll teams. and the fact he only has 1 title certainly says the borderline of the top 20 is about as high as he can be placed. he was great at a lot of things. but he also wasn't really efficient like dirk and he wasn't in dirk's class as a go to scorer. and he fell off in the playoffs somewhat significantly as well. but the numbers may not do his defense justice and his numbers are already really good. he also didn't get to play with a great team until his 30's and the one good team he played with before that lost its second best player (cassell) in the conference finals. so he certainly didn't get the chances to win that dirk did. well, that's why i said rich man's billups and with a really high one game ceiling (like scoring 25 points in a quarter against the lakers). and thomas actually has maybe the best playoff to regular season differential of any great player ever. but at the end of the day, on those title teams he was like an 18 PER guy. basically the pistons were winning with lots of good players and no true superstar, with thomas and billups being the guys they turned to in big moments for offense which kind of made them the face of those teams. he actually led the league in assists one year. he was really good. but he didn't put up great numbers for very long, retired pretty early, and as much as he is known for his scoring, it wasn't highly efficient scoring. for one game, maybe one series, he could be in that 3rd group. for day to day, year to year domination, i would take someone like barkley.
Yes, and McGrady absolutely DOMINATED Dirk in the playoffs, even though McGrady was playing out of position.... top 20 guys all time defend and do not let others playing out of position dominate them. Sorry, Dirk is a hall of famer, but he isnt in the top 20 all time. Off the top of my head Malone, Duncan, Hayes, Garnett, Baylor (if you consider him a 4), Pettit, Shayes, McHale and Barkley are arguably better than Dirk..... that is 9 power forwards.... so no, he isn't top 20.
