1. Welcome! Please take a few seconds to create your free account to post threads, make some friends, remove a few ads while surfing and much more. ClutchFans has been bringing fans together to talk Houston Sports since 1996. Join us!

Jeremy Lin needs to be the sixth man

Discussion in 'Houston Rockets: Game Action & Roster Moves' started by iam, Oct 9, 2013.

  1. maczmina

    maczmina Member

    Joined:
    Oct 12, 2013
    Messages:
    127
    Likes Received:
    1
    I like Lin coming at 6th man, he have more ball and improve the bench offense.
     
  2. shastarocket

    shastarocket Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Jul 18, 2006
    Messages:
    13,773
    Likes Received:
    1,082
    I've reached my breaking pt with these LOFs!

    This has to be the earliest in the season that I have abandoned the GARM.
     
  3. Phillycheese

    Phillycheese Member

    Joined:
    Jan 10, 2013
    Messages:
    554
    Likes Received:
    20
    It's also the earliest you resorted to calling names. That was a fair article from a fan's perspective.
     
  4. Rox23

    Rox23 Member

    Joined:
    Oct 26, 2012
    Messages:
    1,459
    Likes Received:
    64
    I'm not promoting Lin. I'm addressing a conundrum. Personally I would like to see Lin come off the bench as a 6th man; however if you do that the starting unit will devolve into a Harden-centered ISO fest. It's a catch 22. The Rox coaching staff has stated explicitly that they would like to play Harden "off ball" this season and minimize also his ISO's...however how do you do that without a playmaking point guard??? If Harden doesn't run the point then that means Bev will have to run the point and I just don't think that's the best way to go. There are pros and cons either way to benching Lin.
     
  5. TJ VS TR

    TJ VS TR Member

    Joined:
    Apr 18, 2013
    Messages:
    2,399
    Likes Received:
    37
    None of these guys are the best passer on the team. Manu, yes, but they had Duncan post up every single possession anyways, Dwight isn't that kinda player at all. You usually put the third best scorer as sixth man to provide scoring off the bench. Lin could do that but the team is better when he is a passer and get everyone involved to get easy buckets, especially Dwight. Of course, maybe daily coaching by McHale and Dream could dramatically improve his posting up but it's quite risky. We are in the win-now mode.

    Very nice post (got me laughing with your parenthesized sentence) up until the part about Ron Harper!!!
     
  6. Knickskiller

    Knickskiller Member

    Joined:
    Oct 24, 2012
    Messages:
    1,953
    Likes Received:
    52
    Clap Clap Clap.
     
  7. Knickskiller

    Knickskiller Member

    Joined:
    Oct 24, 2012
    Messages:
    1,953
    Likes Received:
    52
    LOL drama mama .:p
     
  8. Rox23

    Rox23 Member

    Joined:
    Oct 26, 2012
    Messages:
    1,459
    Likes Received:
    64
    Just to add a note here. I just finished rewatching the first quarter of the Pacer game on Youtube and noticed that a full 90% of the shots made by that starting unit were full-fledged isolation plays. There were only 2 or 3 plays in the entire quarter that had one pass to facilitate the shot attempt and only one play that had 2 passes (a full court breakaway). I don't think I've ever seen that many one-on-one shot attempts in a single quarter in my life. Funny thing is that it wasn't just Harden attempting ISOs, but Parsons, and Bev, and of course Howard. Two Rockets passes got intercepted by the Pacers during the quarter and which would signify that whenever the Rox did try to playmake and/or move the ball...they ended up turning the ball over and in the end they just reverted back to ISO mode. But man could that group score!
     
  9. Knickskiller

    Knickskiller Member

    Joined:
    Oct 24, 2012
    Messages:
    1,953
    Likes Received:
    52
    Even the idea of entertaining the thought of having Lin play off the bench by Beverly, is plain wrong. Destructive for the good feelings within team, already we have an unhappy Asik to deal with. If it was a better point which could mentor Lin, why not. I am happy for Beverly that Mchale loves his game so much to do this, but Rockets is not the long term place for Lin.
     
  10. Knickskiller

    Knickskiller Member

    Joined:
    Oct 24, 2012
    Messages:
    1,953
    Likes Received:
    52
    I was totally looking forward to a season, of stability for Lin, where he would support and mesh with our 2 Superstars. Now they expect Lin to go Linsainty with the 2nd unit. disgusting with limited minutes. Some Lin doubters (not all) want Lin to sacrifice himself to go prop up a 2nd unit which beverly cannot hold together. lol reward player by demoting him and cutting his minutes because he is better. Sorry I don't into it. The coach needs to come out give Lin props and reason for this. Not just dump him there to rot with leaky lineup.
     
  11. TJ VS TR

    TJ VS TR Member

    Joined:
    Apr 18, 2013
    Messages:
    2,399
    Likes Received:
    37
    ..+1.. for giving real examples.
     
  12. Sweet Lou 4 2

    Sweet Lou 4 2 Contributing Member
    Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Dec 16, 2007
    Messages:
    37,717
    Likes Received:
    18,918
    I personally think Lin would be happier as leading the 2nd unit. I also think LOF would be happier this way too.

    However, I am not sure that is what McHale is thinking. I think he's just experimenting with line-ups so he knows what is in his arsenal. Lin is likely to be the starter when the season begins. The reason for this is that they don't want the ball in Harden's hands all the time because that is tiring him out.

    So it makes sense to have Lin start and have the ball more in his hands - that was one thing McHale wanted to do this year. Put the ball in Lin's hands more.

    But If the offense can be done with Lin on the bench and Harden not dominating the ball, I think it's better for Bev to start. Then we won't have a drop-off when Harden and the starters go to the bench and Lin can do his thing.

    It's pretty amazing that the Pacers game plan for sunday isn't to contain Harden or Howard, it's to contain Lin - the guy coming off the bench. I think that says a lot about the 6th man and the role it can play.
     
  13. tomato123

    tomato123 Rookie

    Joined:
    Mar 24, 2013
    Messages:
    696
    Likes Received:
    39
    The problem is while Harden is playing 40+ minutes, there's no point of getting Lin as a sixth man.

    To me, this whole sixth man theory is to make Lin as a Harden's backup.

    If Lin be sixth man and get plenty of playing time(**with him handling the ball**), of course, there won't be a problem. But if the idea is to pulled his starter position and limited more of his playing time, you can see why lin's fans are so mad.

     
  14. steady

    steady Member

    Joined:
    Dec 14, 2012
    Messages:
    1,329
    Likes Received:
    38
    Roxxy, I somehow missed your post asking for the link to the Ayer paper yesterday! I was trying to work and read CF at the same time. : ) Would love your thoughts as well as those of others.
    http://www.sloansportsconference.co...rt-Ayer-Sloan-Sports-Analytics-Conference.pdf

    ESPN True Hoop article about the paper
    http://espn.go.com/blog/truehoop/post/_/id/38016/you-me-synergy-the-big-2-and-the-big-3

    My posts from yesterday in case people would like to discuss.
    __________________


    Also, I think we really need to revisit the idea of Lin's "fit" with Harden, given Howard's addition to the team.

    I mentioned this earlier in the Howard signed with the Rockets thread, but will mention it again briefly.

    A Robert Ayer paper out of the 2012 Sloan Analytics Conference (Daryl Morey's conference), evaluated synergies created by different player combinations. While the combination of Lin player type and Harden player type was found to have inconclusive synergies. It found a player type combination of Lin, Howard, and Harden player types, to have the highest synergy of all possible player type combinations. That is, this was the combination found to have the greatest likelihood of performing over expectations and having more wins. In fact, this combination out stripped all other combinations by a wide and striking margin. And, interestingly, the key example given by the author of the potential importance of such synergies was this same combination's effectiveness in the Dwight Howard led Orlando Magic team that reached the NBA finals.

    Of course, this is all theoretical, but it at least raises a question about whether last year's assumptions about player fit will apply this year.

    --

    Basically it is based on statistical analysis of combinations that have worked in the past. Here are the player types that correspond to Lin, Harden, and Howard. The paper also includes more stat info about each player type. Sorry, I can only respond briefly now.

    Cluster-7: attacking point guards; High scoring, high assist, high steals, high turnover point guards, who don’t shoot 3s

    Cluster-8: versatile, in the flow of an offense high scoring wings; Multi-faceted, high scoring wings, with high assists for their position and are great 3 point shooters

    Cluster 12: dominant center (Hakeem is an example of this; High scoring post players, high rebounds, high blocks
     
  15. Sweet Lou 4 2

    Sweet Lou 4 2 Contributing Member
    Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Dec 16, 2007
    Messages:
    37,717
    Likes Received:
    18,918
    A. I don't think the staff wants to play Harden 40+ minutes unless it's an elimination game. They saw what happened to Kobe and while Harden is younger, he was visibly fatigue in the playoffs.

    B. It doesn't mean Lin and Harden can't be on the court at the same time.

    And Like I said, McHale hasn't made a decision yet. He's figuring out what works best. So Lin fans shouldn't be upset because what's best for the team is what is best for Lin - you know why? Because that's what Lin says is best for him - he wants to win. Yall should too.

    Lin is going to get his minutes. Whether he gets 25 minutes starting or 25 minutes of the bench - what difference does it make? And if he is shining with the 2nd unit, it probably means he will get more minutes with Harden as well.
     
  16. tomato123

    tomato123 Rookie

    Joined:
    Mar 24, 2013
    Messages:
    696
    Likes Received:
    39
    A) the stuff may not want to play Harden for 40+. but the coach want and harden himself want. what do you think it will end up?

    B) again, then there's no point of pulling lin as a starter if they are playing at the same time.

    Also, when Harden is playing 40+, harden himself can lead the starter plus leading the bench. Just make little adjustment to the rotation and make sure lin to backup harden when he's sitting.

    To me pulling lin's starter position is just to making an excuse. An excuse to say Lin is a bench. Bench play 5 minutes per game is perfectly fine.

     
  17. TheBornLoser

    TheBornLoser Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Mar 18, 2007
    Messages:
    1,393
    Likes Received:
    46
    I am not opposed to Lin becoming the sixth man.

    When he leads the second unit / Harden isn't on the court, he can be Linsanity.

    When he is with Harden on court, he can be the other half of the "best backcourt in the league".

    Face it, the Rockets cannot rely on Beverley to create for the second unit. Hell, ANY UNIT not bearing the name Harden or Lin in it is going to have an ugly, UGLY offense.

    The very fact that the coach is considering the possibility of having Lin lead the second unit is not an indictment of his abilities. It is actually acknowledgement. It shows he is the only one who can be trusted to make that unit perform.

    And the game in Manila is just the final confirmation of this fact - put Lin on almost any team... ANY TEAM... he makes them all better. Put him on a team of NYK scrubs, he brings out Linsanity and helps them to a winning run of games. Put him at full confidence with Harden, Rockets have a contender for best backcourt in the league (no one is going to proclaim a tandem of Beverley - Harden with that title, sorry). Put him as the primary playmaker when Harden was out injured - Rockets were still able to put up a winning run of games. Put him on the second unit of the Rockets in Manila, and that unit not only performs like a team of starters... it drove the nail into the Pacers' coffin in that game.

    If Lin becomes reaches even 80% of his Linsanity level, not only does he become the de facto third star in the Rockets push for the crown, he will help elevate the rest of the role players.

    Trade for a 3rd star? Pfffft. The rough diamond is already in the palm of the Rockets' hand. Nurture it, polish it, and then watch it shine :)
     
  18. Amiga

    Amiga 10 years ago...
    Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Sep 18, 2008
    Messages:
    21,892
    Likes Received:
    18,654
    One of Lin best attribute, or perhaps greatest strength, is getting everyone to play harder and better, elevating their game. I don't know what it is about him that does this. Perhaps it's motivating to see a guy without any great physical abilities be able to do what he does. You rarely see this with many great player, like Harden or Tmac. Individually, they excel, win games single-handily, but rarely elevate players around them. In fact, especially in the case of Tmac and you see it with Harden as well, player around them do less, play worst, stand around watching the superstar take care of business.

    But for Lin to do this, he needs to dominate the ball. This is why I think it's best for the team to play him as the 6th man. Unless the starter suffer without him (doubtful given their caliber) I think the team will be more successful with Lin playing in this role.
     
  19. shortfuse3

    shortfuse3 Member

    Joined:
    Aug 7, 2008
    Messages:
    3,912
    Likes Received:
    59
    All great teams had a spark off the bench, a 6th man that can come in and take over games. Jeremy Lin has the opportunity to be that for this team, and the Rockets will be SO MUCH BETTER.
     
  20. Play07

    Play07 Member

    Joined:
    Aug 6, 2013
    Messages:
    4,973
    Likes Received:
    244
    When has MCHALE actually stated the team needs Lin as a 6th man ??? On top of that is a coach that knows how to use him as one. Until then he got benched we will see more Harden ISO, less pick and roll with Howard, less Howard getting fed the ball on nice passes close to the rim. Thats the facts not saying that's not our best chance of going the furthest in post season or not but that is what it is at this point
     

Share This Page

  • About ClutchFans

    Since 1996, ClutchFans has been loud and proud covering the Houston Rockets, helping set an industry standard for team fan sites. The forums have been a home for Houston sports fans as well as basketball fanatics around the globe.

  • Support ClutchFans!

    If you find that ClutchFans is a valuable resource for you, please consider becoming a Supporting Member. Supporting Members can upload photos and attachments directly to their posts, customize their user title and more. Gold Supporters see zero ads!


    Upgrade Now