Buddy, you're getting irrational. Kinda like my hatred for Jordan makes me sometimes... I'm sure you're a reasonable person normally, but judging from this post, at this point you're just trying to "win the argument," instead of arrive at the truth. You supposedly despise name-calling, yet you're dishing out more than you're taking. I'm the best defender at my school in Sacramento. What's my vertical? Oh, like 12 inches, if that. I'm not fast either. I'm also a shade under 6'0 and 170 pounds. Then how could I, as I mentioned in a Hangout post, hold a guy who's 4 or 5 inches taller and way more athletic than me to 1 basket in 2 hours of play? Fundamentals. I know which angles to cut off based on where everyone is on the court. I know how to cover for a teammate who got beat while not leaving my man open for an easy hoop. I've learned to see passing lanes develop. I know the footwork that will keep me in front of my man, even when he's more athletic (which is most of the time). I've learned to resist the urge to jump as the opponent jumps, but instead jump a half second afterwards. Athleticism does not equal defense. They are separate entities. Does athleticism help? Sure. And it helps offense, too. Do you consider Francis a great defender? I don't. He's kinda average defensively. Athleticsim? Uh, point me to a guy who's more athletic than Steve, please... Or better yet, would you like to claim that Doug Christie and Bruce Bowen are both more athletic? So why can't, say, Pau Gasol learn this basic stuff? Or Giricek? Or Tskitishvili? So they practice shooting and passing more. Big deal! As I see it, Americans are generally superior rebounders, ballhandlers, and defenders. Europeans aren't the messiahs you make them out to be.
Great post, I agree with you on basically everything there. To be a great defender, I think that either you need years of practice or a great defensive coach.
First of all...Yes. There is technique to playing defense. But this technique is the last thing you'll see naturally gifted one-on-one players embrace, i.e. Francis. Why? Because it's not fun, it hurts, and it's not flashy. There are a few questions regarding a player that needs to be answered in regard to defense... One is, has that player been taught the proper technique? Two, does the player have physical characteristics to play defense? And three, is the player willing to commit himself to actually play D? One is technique. One is athletic/physical related. One is a mental decision. So, Francis is more athletic than Bruce Bowen. True. But Francis could be a better defender given proper teaching. I mean, Francis already has the tools. It's the same thing with Kobe. When he first came into the league he concentrated on scoring. Not defense. It's learned. Yes. But it's not only about technique. Now, you asked about "Doug Christie and Bruce Bowen are both more athletic?" than Francis... Those guys are not slouches. You seem to think that Francis, just because he can jump and has natural quickness, that the other guys are slow and non-athletic. Not true. Those guys are very athletic. But since they aren't as offensively explosive they spent more time working on defense technique. They put in the work. Those guys are smart defenders as well as athletic players. I completely understand your points about passing lanes, footwork, and having the urge to jump for pump-fakes...etc.. Those are all technique related. You use your mind for those type skills. And I'm all for that. But, see how by using your *mind* to understand technique, you'll able to compete at a high level against faster/quicker players (athletic only)? This is my whole point about what has happened on the offensive end in regards to US players vs International players. The International players are able to *compete/beat* US players that are more athletic, yet not as schooled in technique. The same points you made about yourself and defense, is the same point I'm trying to make on the offensive end. I have a question for you? What would happen if those more athletic players on your team would dedicate themselves to learn the defensive techniques you already know? If that was to happen, then the mere fact that they have natural athletic ability would elevate themselves above your defensive game. Now, this is to assume that they have the BB-IQ to understand the techniques in the first place. But that's another story...heh...some players just don't have the mental capacity to understand or the patience. And it all goes back to: One is technique (trainers/coaching) One is athletic/physical related (natural ability;gifted;jumping;quickness,etc...) One is a mental decision (commitment; inner fire) US players are lacking the first one. And they turn-on the last one when the going gets tough (when they can't score and the coach yells at them to shut their opponent down).
Ok, what does "knowing fundamental skills" mean? First , let me make it clear what I mean when I say fundamentally sound player. I'm taking about shooing technique, free-throws, ball handling (w/both hands, does not favor one over the other), passing technique, setting picks, screens, pick and rolls, back doors...and lastly iso plays. True, all of those things I mentioned are offensive type skills. So tell me what the prevailing skills set the US team loves? ISO. And, none as much a Francis. So, what about the other skills? I ask you, on a whole, have the US players shown as much interest to learn those techniques as much as the international players have? As far as defense is concerned. True. The International players lack these skills. But what is more difficult to master? So, I say, the influx of International players into the NBA have "changed" the game offensively (not iso related) for the better. And we're seeing it unfold before our eyes on the Spurs series. Now, this is not to say that some US players don't "get it" as well. Maurbury put in the work last off-season to learn the game the right way. He's worked on his team play, and this has elevated his natural athletic game to higher levels. Francis has yet to turn this corner. Malik Rose, one of my favorite players, plays the game the right way. To me, he plays "Russell-like." That does not mean that he's "as good as Russell," it just means that he plays with the same tenacity, fire, heart. Oh, and they guy has scoring skills. So he's no slouch there either.
As I like to put it: Technique, Athleticism, Desire. Good summation. Yes, they aren't slouches. I realize that fully. If you felt I was implying that either is "slow" or a "slouch," please understand that I didn't mean that at all. My problem with your statements was that you were equating defense and athleticism, and disregarding what I see as general superiority in American defensive technique as well as athleticism. I was only responding to the defensive side of things. For me it's too close and too early to call the race on the offensive side of the ball between the U.S. and Europe. The styles differ too much, and there are too many T-Macs, Kobes, Allens, and Kidds to counter the Pejas and Dirks. I will say, though, that I see where you're coming from here, and I agree with the premise of a more team-oriented, passing offense than an isolation-type offense. And here I point to our fundamental disagreement again, maybe with more clarity: I not only think that Americans are generally superior defenders when taking athleticism into consideration, I also think their defensive technique is superior to that of Europeans. If you can find them again, watch a few of those videos of Nachbar that were posted before the start of the season. Those players aren't just average defensively, they're terrible defensively. And they're all Europeans, so it's not like one team has a vast athleticism advantage over the other. They basically just took turns making each other look foolish on the offensive end.
You are missing the point again. Comparing players was a novelty and it's fun. But not an exact science. I was mearly stating that International players are bringing back the "old school" type of play into the 2000's (forcing change today). And we're seeing that in this play-off series. Tony Parker (20 year old) is a unique player. I could compare him to Cheeks with a little Isiah. Dirk is a player that could be compared to Bird with a little English. Ginobly? Hell, there are a lot of old school players like him. He's kinda of hybrid-guard. Shooting/passing, but also slashing/dunking skills too. A well rounded 2-guard. He's has a high bb-IQ! Yao? Walton, Sabonis, with a little Kareem... Don't forget, the veteren players I mentioned above have "legendary" history behind them. Let these International playes make their own "history."
Hmmmm....yeah, that's a tricky one. What about this... Take an athletic US player without teaching him defensive techniques, then tell him to defense someone. Next... Take an non-athletic International player without teaching him defensive techniques, then tell him to defend someone. Who will do better? It's obvious the US player has an advantage by just merely being athletic; quicker/jump higher. Now, here's where it gets even more tricky... US players like McGrady so sooooo damn good athletically, they spend more time developing their offensive game (mostly ISO type skills). But, US players like Matt Harpring, not an offensive juggernaut, spends more time developing his WHOLE game. So, it's players like this (mid-level guys), that are better in defensive technique vs International players (even against their best guys). It's strange. Because International players can learn defense if they put their mind to it. Andrei Kirilenko is one of the better foreign defenders. So, I know it's possible. Heh... What seems to be happening is that the International players are being taught the whole game offensively, but little defensively. The US players are being taught the one-on-one game offensively, but only teaching defensive techniques to those that "want" to learn (the low-level or mid-level guys, and some elite scorers). Artest seem to take pride in playing defense; he's a excellent elite player. But, there seem to be more low-mid level guys that put more into it; Mark Madson, Eudardo Najera, Rick Fox, Bruce Bowen... But you're right, there has been a concerted effort (at least in the last 15 years) in the US game to push defense as a mandatory skill set. This is the main advantage over International players. Watch out if they learn how to play D.
In my opinion, Tariq Abdul-Wahad is the best European defender currently. I also wonder why more Europeans can't get themselves to a Tariq/Adrei level on defense. They have the capability... the only really good example of a European player who sucked at defense and them became good later is Peja. He's pretty brutal on defense now...
