This article made me think about Bibby being selected over Francis or Iverson. Why? Well, I see a pattern here. The USA committee is sending a message to future NBA players. "Play-ground" players are NOT welcome! Only fundamental players that know the game will be invited to represent the USA Team. No more will we put together a "team" that consists of a bunch of talented *individuals* like AI or Francis (not until the learn to play with a team). Remember, we lost the World Basketball Championship. That wont happen the next time. http://www.nba.com/wbc/ http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/news?slug=finalolympicadds&prov=st&type=lgns
You do know that AI is on the team as well, right? I do agree that ever since Dream Team 2, they've looked a little closer at having players with upstanding character, and less flair. (Insert your Office Space joke here.... )
i'm sure we had all forgotten. and why won't it happen next time, b/c of bibby/jefferson/collison? please. it'll be b/c of kobe/tmac/duncan, all better than anyone on the last squad.
3 players at the end of the bench that won't get any playing time considering the team will use a solid 8 to 9 man rotation. These players are being groomed for the NEXT TEAM USA in the Olympics. They picked these 3 players because they are good "team guys" and won't complain if they get NO playing time which of course will be the case.
He should. Francis is not a team player. The point is Jefferson the 2nd year player over Griffin. But why? Ever seen one of Jefferson's interviews? Who's smarter? Griff or Jefferson? It's obvious that Jefferson is a student of the game. Griff is not. Again, you are so stuck on points in order to evaluate a players worth. Figures, with a name like francis 4 prez. You are just as hopeless as the real Francis. You'll never understand the concept of the "team."
what a moronic statement. a) my screen name has nothing to do with the validity of my points b) my screen name in no way expresses the full spectrum of my thoughts on the rockets. it's a quick little joking sort of name. do you know how long i've followed the rockets? try since i was 8, the 89-90 season. hell i wrote how much i liked hakeem and how much i hated jordan in my 2nd grade journal all the time. i've missed maybe 3 or 4 games a year since 93-94, and most of those weren't my choice. when i registered, francis was indeed my favorite player (almost by default, the best guy on a team i root for is my favorite player on that team). it was 3 a.m. and i was just trying to get a name quick so i could go to bed. it seemed like a funny little phrase at the time (it would've been "president" and not "prez" but it didn't fit). i had no idea francis would one day come to be the most reviled person in all of rocketdom nor did i know yao would come along and cause the "yao-only fan" craze which could lead to people having a s/n similar to me being labeled francis-only fans. i'm sorry if the fact you say stupid things means you have to turn to my s/n as a copout. c) i play about as team oriented a game as is possible when i'm in pickup games. and it doesn't exactly get rewarded all the time, but i do it anyway. please please please don't try to tell me anything about "team" ball.
Sorry, just had to quote this in case the paramedics ask questions when removing your foot from your mouth. Iverson is on the team.
He's "hated" because, for all the good things he does he negates it with idiotic decisions. He's a 50/50 player. He does 50 % good things, 50% bad things. Face it, Francis is one of the worst decision makers players in the league. And if he continute to make stupid turnovers, then he'll continue to get bashed.
Duh! It's been posted already. I now know! Read the rest of the posts! It still doesn't disprove my point. The game is moving towards a more "old school" league. As time goes on, more and more International players will enter the league. And more and more athletic American players will learn (or re-learn) how to play like Dirk, Parker, Ginobli, and Gasol. They've changed the game for the better.
So you don't mind the fact that Dirk and Gasol have no defense whatsoever, right? Oh wait, Gasol can block some shots, so let me give him some credit. Dirk, for all his shooting glory, isn't a very good passer, and is borderline sad on defense. The next generation of uber-players are not the Europeans. The next generation of uber-players are the Kobe Bryants and the Tracy McGrady's - the guys that combine offense, defense, and team play (in most cases anyway). You also say that the league is moving towards being more "old school". In what way? But anyway, let's play a game. Tell me how Dirk, Parker, Ginobili, and Gasol have "changed the game" moreso than any other American players have. What do they do that a subset of former American players haven't done before? Dirk is a freak of nature, and a one-in-a-million talent. I'll grant you that. How have these other guys "changed the game"?
I do mind. But you are saying, "Hey look the International players don't play very good defense. Ha ha!" But that's not the issue. The NBA has never been needing better defense. They always knew that. Why? Because most of the American players realized, "Hey, If I'm going to contribute in my youth as an NBA player, I better do something. Ok, I can play defense. It doesn't require much knowledge in the game to do that. I'll do this until I figure out how this one-on-one thing goes." The fact is that American basketball doesn't need better training in defense (Wallace). They don't need better training in one-on-one offense (Francis). They need better training in team oriented offense. Get it? Oh my god. How nice of you to wait until their 6th and 7th year to say that. How convenient. Nice of you to say, "in most cases anyways" on team play. Anyways, compare the games of Gordan Giricek, Gasol, Parker, and Ginobli to your young studs rookies years. Notice a difference in their knowledge of the game? You don't, you'll always be blinded by the "ESPN highlight" Can you say, "dunk?" By the way, one big point you are missing is that players like McGrady and Kobe are hybrid type. They have the "tools; athletic ability" to do great things. But they slow down their development if all they worked on was one-on-one type skills. They completely ignored the other parts of the game during their early years. They are the first "naturally gifted" American players to start realizing that it takes great team play in order to win. Sorry, but your next group of "next generation of uber-players" will be the likes of Lebron James, Darko Milicic, Carmelo Anthony, and our very own Yao Ming. Have you watched the play-offs yet? See, American basketball as I knew it was "old school." It's ok to be flashy as long as you "know what you are doing" fundamentally. In the 90s we lost those fundamentals. That's changing due to increased talent in foreign countries and pressure from fans, and also not groping after every high-school player just because he can dunk. Owners and scouts are being more particular in their "talent" choices. Here's what you are doing. You are saying, "I'll take 50 years of NBA player history, clump them together in one big ball, call that American contribution, and then use that -- against any foreign player -- as an excuse that Americans, collectively, have done more for the game than any international player has..." Duh! Ok, lets get back to reality here. During the 90's the league was infiltrated by young, naive, athletic kids that came out of college early not knowing the "game" as it should be taught. Sure, they had natural athletic talent. But they didn't know the whole "game." Why? Well, guess who they grew up emulating? Jordan. They wanted to be like, "Mike." But little did they know what it "took" to "be like Mike." They didn't know. And for most of the 90's, the fans (purist) suffered by watching fundamentally-ignorant players run around looking clueless while Jordan destroyed them. It took a player like Tim Duncan to break the monotony. As far as your question about the other players besides, Dirk... Again, watch the play-offs lately? Seen a 20 year old guy named Parker that doesn't use "youth" as an excuse. I'd say he's made a huge impact on the game in terms of kids wanting to be like "Parker." And that includes his team play, passing and shooting. Forget the dunks and one-on-one. Americans already know how to do that. P.S. Your question, "What do they (foreign players) do that a subset of former American players haven't done before?" You're right. But the key point is this... These young International players are playing the game in the likes of Russell, Mchale, Robertson, Bernard King, Alex, Rick Barry, English... They are bringing back "old school" fundaments. And this will force the "naturally gifted phenoms" to improve as well.
Look at what Francis did on the all-star team for a second. He hardly had any turnovers, and he put up 20 points and 9 assists. So did you ever stop and think that if Francis has other talented players on his team that he would change his game up? Francis is a team player when he has a freakin' TEAM to play with!
Read my sig. It's the concept of "making your teammates better." Not them making you (Francis) better.
My Lord you babble. So you agree that their defense is bad? Thanks. The rest of that stuff you spewed has nothing to do with what I was talking about. Calm down spaz. If you did, you'd realize these "first year" guys have better training overseas before they're 20 than our kids do here. "Oh my god", more below... I'm sure you would have said the same thing about Tskitishvili last year, right? Amazing how you can predict how any of those guys are going to do before they've done anything yet. Yet you proclaim them the next generation. You're so blinded by your ill-conceived opinions. The owners and scouts aren't being "more particular"... their sample size and lot have grown due to the influx of international players. The rest of the world is catching up to us. Yet the rest of the world still has glaring deficiencies as well. They aren't as "fundamentally sound" as you proclaim. Do you hyperventilate as you type? Thanks for letting me know what my opinion is, but as usual, your typing and mouth are moving faster than your reasoning and logic can keep up. Trying to read one of these responses of yours is painful because you're all over the place. By the way, the above assumption of yours regarding my opinion is incorrect. So.. uh... Duh! back. If you look at your statements, it is you who is taking 50 years of basketball and saying that somehow these international players are "changing the game". Welcome back. I never left. **** much cliche and irrelevant spewing deleted **** You still haven't said squat other than he's a good player. I don't think anybody denied that. Now defend your statement : How has he changed the game? Don't tell me about "team ball" and "no flash" and that kind of crap. I could just as easily throw out names like Jason Kidd, Gary Payton, Mike Bibby, Steve Nash, Bobby Jackson, Eric Snow, Ray Allen, etc. that are all good ball players and somehow know about these mystical fundamentals and have been around through the those horrible 90's that seem to make you want to cry. So I'm supposed to now get excited about 1 international PG that has made it here and according to you has somehow "changed the game"? By the way, I don't know if you've run out of feet to swallow yet, but Parker's been getting professional training since he was 17. I know you attempted to use the fact that Kobe and Tracy have been playing for a while as some type of negative, so I figure I'd turn the tables : Most of the guys you talk about have been playing for years in pro or pro-style leagues. Gordan Giricek? Check his age - he'll be 26 in June. The guy has been playing professional basketball for Croatia since he was 12-13 years old. The last time I looked Croatia had a pretty good basketball tradition. Guess he had a headstart on Kobe and TMac, huh? Too bad his fundamentals haven't caught up to his game because even though he's been playing basketball for half his life, he still hasn't learned how to shield the basketball on a layup (I have a rejection of his shot courtesy of Cuttino Mobley, if you'd like). Pau Gasol? He started playing pro ball and getting professionally trained when he was about 18 as well. Seems like they've all been playing for a few years and getting good coaching for those years. Thanks. In other words, they are not changing a thing. Basketball itself is moving in cycles. Worldwide. The US and international games may be out of phase in this cycle, but the international game is not somehow superior because of this. Sure they are. I can tell by the great defensive pivot men in the NBA from international teams that remind me of Bill Russell. The great Vlade Divac, the wondrous Jake Tsakilidis, and oh, the list goes on. Give me a break. Since Russell is known for defense and rebounding and you said that defense isn't important in this argument, I'm really intrigued to see which international player you're saying is changing or playing the game like Russell did. What international player who's "changing the game" with his "fundamentals" reminds you of McHale (uh oh, you're going to have to find one that scores, plays great defense, and rebounds now...). Bernard King was quite honestly one of the greatest scorers of the modern age. Who're you going to compare to him? Peja? Good grief. When you can find any player that can play with dislocated fingers, a 101 degree fever, and still rack up 40+ pts. in a game, then you can mention him in the same breath as Bernard King. There is only one person I'd remotely consider on the same scoring level if not greater than Jordan post-80's -- and that's Bernard King. There is nothing from any planet much-less internationally that could destroy a defense like he could. Alex English. You may find a good one to compare to him as he couldn't play a lick of defense as he went off for 25 and the guy he guarded went off for 20. But then I could find a few non-international players that could score. Or are you going to come back with "but... but... but... he can hit the mid-range jumper!" Oscar Robertson? I don't even need to go any further. Oh wait, yes I do. You've lost your mind if you can come up with a player that plays remotely like Oscar in the NBA -- either foreign or American. The things he did still aren't being done. The closest was/is Magic and Kidd, and Kidd hasn't exactly revolutionalized anything. Your dismissal of defense as part of basketball fundamentals is a crock. But I'm sure admitting that would deflate your argument about overseas players somehow changing the game. I understand. Next time, reduce the NBA cliches, add some substance, rid yourself of the inane analogies and hyperboles, and maybe you'd have an argument... and don't forget to breathe while you type.
that may have been the greatest post ever. you said everything to DavidS i've ever wanted to say but either didn't have time to or didn't wanna sound too prickish saying it or knew i wouldn't be able to stop from being reduced to namecalling while saying it. excellent post. but one thing you didn't mention so i will. francis is a 50/50 player? so what, there are like 12 or 13 people in the whole league who break that 50/50 barrier and actually make a net contribution while the other 334-335 players make net negative contributions to their teams?
Let me rephrase it for you. You are pointing at the deficiencies in defense from International players, and they saying of that the American players on a whole "know the game?" Please... Could it be that the reason that McGrady and Kobe are "able" to play defense is because of their natural athletic ability? Are you saying this has nothing to do with it? Are you saying that there is absolutely no residual? I'm saying that International players rely less on their antithetic ability and more on their understanding of the game. My other point is that "defense" is not a current problem in the last 10 years for the US players. But it's less a subset of the game, and more of an "necessity." They can't win by one-on-one (they realize it wont work), so they do what they have to: stop the other guy. It's happening out of necessity, rather than fundamental teaching. Great! Name calling. Are you 15 years old? Your reply shows your maturity. I'm having a debate here. If you can't handle it like a mature person, don't bother replying. It makes you look like a child. Hey, you're getting it! The key is "better training." Not that the American players aren't getting any. It's the type of training they are getting that is important. Some have said that the International players are starting early (15) compared to the Americans. That's a copout. It's not the amount of training. It's the type of training. One is playground oriented, one is practice oriented. Uh, you can say that about any player for that matter. Predict, smirdict... You can word it any way you like. But in my book, picking an international player (less althetic) over an american player (more athletic) is, being "more particular." That's my point. But, "catching up" is not the same thing as "knowing the fundaments of the game." The International player has already past us -- on a whole -- in that aspect today. You are talking about "catching up" in terms of athletic ability. That might never happen. In case you didn't realize it, but we did lose the WBC, even though the US had more athletic players (some naturally gifted). That's right. "Glaring deficiencies" in defense. But regarding your, "as well" comment. What are these "glaring deficiencies" in the USA game? Tell me. I'd love to hear your points on this... Hmmmm... At least you're addmiting that much... I was not saying that. I was saying that the international players of today are "changing" the game TODAY -- especially the "dunk fest" 90's. So, that's what I'm going after. Just because it's happened 20 years ago, doesn't mean that "change" isn't happening today. You are misunderstanding the use of the word "changing." You think I mean, create something "new." No. I'm saying bring back the "old school ways." What don't you understand about that? The "changing" into "something new" will happen when LeBron, Anthony, and Yao take over the league. Again, I restate. It's not the time they've had training. It's the type of training they've had. I repeat, the "type of training." Kobe and McGrady (in their teens) "played more basketball." Parker and Ginobly (in their teens) "practiced more basketball." There is a difference. It's all up to the players to make the initiative to put in the type of work to learn all facets of the game. Not just flashy dunking. Kobe and McGrady have learn this recently (Kobe's bout with Shaq and McGrady's struggles by himself). That's right. But that's not Gasol's fault. It's our fault for not training our players the same way. I mean, you know the reasons why they succeed (with less naturally talented players). So why not learn from this? It's time we act, not make excuses. You either do what it takes to get better (compete with International players). Or get the hell out of the way (lose jobs in the NBA to International players). Again, "changing" to you means creating something "new." I'm talking about bringing back the fundamentals of old (if that will make you feel better). I think it's blind and arrogant of you not to realize that the International players are learning the game of basketball -- the whole game - better than the USA, or like we USED to play it. The "new part" will be when we will be able to mesh the athletic ability of "new school" and the fundamentals of "old school." Defense is a huge part of the fundaments of the game. But just because the American players can play defense, but have trouble playing team oriented offense does not equate to "fundamental basketball" on our part. True, the same argument can be said for International players (no defense, thus not completely fundamental). But that's hasn't been the problem with USA basketball (we know defense, but only because it's a residual of our athletic ability. Not because the players actually wanted to play d). We've been so concerned with one-on-one basketball for the last 10 years that we've forgotten the other facets of the team game. Here's an example. Take the WBC when we played Spain and Argentina. When the USA Team realized that Argentina wasn't going to go away, what did the USA players do? They started to go one-on-one (Davis, Pierce and O'Neal). And when the USA Team started to miss shots and struggle offensively, what did they do then? They started to clamp down on defense (albeit,"dirty" defense, if you recall). See, they are playing defense out of necessity, rather than because it was part of their "fundamentals." So, to argue that defense is part of "fundamental basketball" is missing the point of team oriented offense that I'm trying to make. Argentina didn't have to play tough nosed defense. Why? Because their offense was so smooth, so dynamic on a team level, that they never had to rely on playing defense out of necessity. See where I'm going here? Not that defense isn't a skill that can't be learned too. But that's another issue. I mean, Francis has yet to commit himself to learning how to play great defense. But his problems aren't that. He's main problem is his dependence on his athletic ability and one-on-one play. That has to be addressed first. Again, this is another issue.
Let's see : You stated : I said that most of these players you mentioned have had years of experience themselves. So your statement above served no purpose. If anything it was based upon your ignorance that these players have played several years in Europe. Either that or you wanted to look clueless. You stated : I asked a simple question. Tell me which international players are playing the game like any of these people. You are clearly stating that some of them do in the quote above. I even gave you Alex English as a "gimme". You did not really address the question. I figured if you made the statement, you could at least back it up. Perhaps you have no position to back up. I don't know. I'd like to think you have something to say, but just have problems converging on the point. You stated : Which you admitted was in error on your part as Iverson is, in fact, on the team. Thank you for admitting the error. It just seems more funny everytime I cut and paste it into a response and lets me know you don't do much research. You stated : After I called you a "spaz". You say the above, yet you yourself ridiculed francis 4 prez by saying the following : Guess you walked right into that. So sorry for your blunder. After all is said and done, your hatred for the current game and the players of the "90's" and Francis is so great that it stops you from thinking objectively. You dismiss the fact that most foreign players come here with pathetic defensive skills and get lit up like Christmas trees night after night. But that's ok. It's all about those dang 90's players! Your statements in this thread appear to be saying that "our offense sucks, and, yeah international players' defense sucks, but they're changing the game because they know how to play offensively and fundamentally... uh, but yeah, the defensive part is fundamental, too". You make no sense. I've read several of your posts in other threads and you do respond pretty aggressively, but you also fail to convey much or prove much. You casually ignore or dodge statements directed at you. In my opinion you take several lines to say nothing other than "I hate the NBA of today". Which is fine, but don't act like you can really defend it by saying the International scene is somehow this bastion of basketball know-how. Anywho, I'm beginning to understand the frustrations others have when trying to respond to your posts, so I'll go ahead and bow out of this thread. Let's say "you're right, and I'm wrong" or "we're both wrong" or "we're both right". Choose whichever as I don't see any success in my future in trying to pin you down to many of the comments you made above. N'joy your day and happy posting.
