I think we are saying the same thing... I agree that they are less efficient with the shots available to them, hence you do not see Tyson Chandler launching 20 footers.
I've seen many players do this. For example on the play I mentioned earlier Harden was the only player chasing the guy down...so that means the other ones were either walking that way or just watching. Sometimes a player will just concede. There are not many players who just go out and play 110% every single possession.
Nobody is saying that, only you are. People are merely stating that Harden's burden offensively means he has less energy defensively. What does Lin boxing out centers have to do with anything? What does Parsons stealing the ball have to do anything? I have seen Harden guard bigger players on the switch many times, and I have seen him rebound over bigger players everytime. You act like Harden is on the bench on the defensive end and that he doesn't rebound, box out, steal the ball (which he does very well by the way). I'm sorry, but the fact that you are using measly argument such as these to prove that Lin and Parsons are carrying just as much burden as Harden is atrocious. Absolutely atrocious. And I'm not even saying Harden isn't slacking off on D.
YUP This is precisely what I said. What evidence? You haven't provided any facts to back up your assertion that he was good. People provided synergy stats, ORTG stats, XDRAPM stats etc. Positivitydome provided a detailed commentary on why Harden was a poor defender & your response was "Nope". What have you contributed to the discussion. And I listed Asik Parsons & Delfino as guys who consistently give effort on D & yet you focus solely on Lin. Predictable. Listen if you want to have a discussion about the Rockets feel free I am all for it. But please cut the strawman bs out.
You know what this is 100% fair & accurate. And it wasn't just last night that this happened. There have been repeated times where he is the only one that runs back on D. I think there was that game where Lin had the turnover & Harden ran back & blocked it with his beard. That was the Chicago game I think on Christmas or something. And there have been multiple times where he runs back on D & gets the steal as well aside from last night. So yes this is a fair point, there are hustle plays that he does that nobody else does.
Strawman argument... your entire discussion has been a strawman argument? #1 I never said that he was a "good" defender, only that his man defense is not the issue, it is his team defense; #2 Numerous statistics were cited by other posters showing that his defense is not as bad as you make it out to be.... hell I even gave you an out, when I pointed out that defensive statistics need to be taken carefully, as they do not always account for differentiating between team defense and individual defense. #3 Positivitydome's post was responded to appropriately, the belief that Harden is too laterally slow and small (?????) to be even "passable" defensively in man defense is absurb..... I strongly considered responding in greater detail, but it was just not worth it. #4 I discussed Parsons and Delfino earlier in this thread. #5 Essentially your entire argument is ERRRRR I watch Harden walk down on the defensive end, I see it, he is terrible...... no matter how much discussion takes place, you believe what you want. Concerning Lin, I have seen your posts concerning Lin this season, your bias is VERY obvious. #6 So, you sit on your strawman and believe what you want. I have wasted an hour discussing it with you. Regardless of JayZ discussing it, or Dr. or anyone else, you fall back on "I see him walk back on defense"... so enjoy!
Harden is a good defender, at least he was at OKC. I think his defense will pick up when the Rockets have another consistent offensive threat OR when they have a coach that isn't scared to get on him about his lack of defensive effort. McHale knows he can't pis off Harden like he did Lowry...
Is it really too much to ask? I think there have been many great players put forth effort on both ends while carrying a scoring load, and playing max minutes. Then I think back at Kobe, and it took him quite a few years to learn a defenders role. Tracy played D I think near the start of his career. MJ was one of the greatest defenders, right from the get go. No, it's not too much to ask, it actually should be in his 90 million dollar contract IMO.
This makes no sense to me though. Okay lets look at Parsons for example. Parsons is playing big minutes too. He isn't carrying as big of an offensive burden as Harden is but he is also contributing more on the defensive end than Harden is. Or do you disagree? So if Parsons can contribute on both sides of the court why can't Harden. The notion that Harden carries such a large offensive burden & therefore he has less energy on D rings hollow to me. Parsons does a lot of things on the court playing the second most minutes on the roster. Doesn't he have less energy too? And yet he contributes defensively & offensively. Maybe I am misunderstanding you I do not know or I am putting words into your mouth. Anyway JayGoogle raised a valid point. There are a lot of times I can remember where Harden is the only player to run back in transition to try & grab a steal or block a shot (with his beard). Omer Lin Parsons etc all just stand on the other side of the court watching him do that. It is hypocritical of me to be frustrated with harden walking back on D & yet not praise him (an be frustrated with the others) on the multiple occasions where he is the only one who gets back in transition. So on this I am mistaken. To be honest I think what the Rockets need is a strong defensive player. Kind of like Avery Bradley with the Celtics or Iman Shumpert with the Knicks. Somebody who takes pride in his defense first & foremost. Someone like Jarred Jeffries maybe (he can defend multiple positions). He is a veteran guy so he won't hesitate to lay it on guys who aren't cutting it. I don't know if Omer is as vocal on defense as he could be. I was watching the lakers the other night & Howard yelled out "stay home" to Jamison who was about to concede a corner 3 to help in the post. I wonder if Omer is vocal like that out there on the court. I am wondering if Bev can be that guy.
Your point would be more valid if both Lin and Parsons didn't consistently disappear on the offensive end. You're comparing two guys who don't even average 15 points a game to a guy who is averaging 26 points a game while constantly being double teamed. They do not have the same offensive burden that Harden has so good defense, hustle, and effort is expected from them... Yes, Harden can put forth more effort and if he's winded McHale should find away to rest him more (if possible) during the game. But its seriously not fair to compare the three players when they all have different roles...
Like a previous poster said before me, I believe Harden's defense will improve once we acquire a legit 20 ppg/superstar to help Harden with the scoring load. You mentioned T-mac as a great defender in his early years, which is true. However, later on in his career he became lazy on defense because he conserved his energy on the offensive end because there was no other consistent offensive scorer on the team. T-mac played defense when he had to, though. We all remembered how he shut down dirk in the 2005 playoffs. Harden gets a pass in my book as long as he knows when to step it up during crunch time or until Morey finds another star to pair up with him.
Our team defense as a whole has been bad. Harden hasn't been spectacular defensively this season, but neither has anyone else. It's coaching, that's where good team defense comes from. Even Tmac played respectable D under JVG, because we had good team defensive schemes back then (really it was Thibodeau).
if ur best player doesnt play defense of give the effort, the coaching staff cant expect anyone else to do so. The best player has tolead by example from an effort and defensive point of view. His effort has been suspect, but after this season he will know what he has to do stamina wise to be a good defender. He can be a good defender, no one ever said he had to be a great defender.
I don't think this is true at all. The coaches are supposed to get the most out of their players. If Harden or anyone else doesn't give enough effort defensively, it falls on the coaches. Like I said above, the coaches got Tmac to play solid D his first few years here, because we had good defensive coaches.
Okay let me make this really simple. The Rockets would suffer most losing which player? Harden, Parsons or Lin? Your answer to this reflects the player that carries the most burden on this team.
I disagree. When tracy was here he was good defender and when he wanted to he was great defender. Top that off, he had just as big of an offensive load as harden. I always thought it was a mistake to take tracy off the hook defensively. Hes always been a better player when he is challenged. Bottomline, Harden needs to play with better effort defensively. Right now, Kevin Martin is playin better defense than harden.
Nook the advanced stats and eye test seem to indicate that Harden is a bad defender. Yeah, the team defense is bad, but if you were to pick out who the main 'culprits' were for missing rotations, losing their man, not helping appropriately Harden would be one of the main offenders, the other obvious one would have been Marcus Morris.
