James Harden is as good a playmaker as Jeremy Lin.

In case there was confusion, the second half of that paragraph were my words.

Also, Lin does lead the team in Ast% in the paint. And he has the highest count of assists that leads to layups or dunks:

Assists to Dunks/Layups
assistant        count
Jeremy Lin        100
James Harden       73
Chandler Parsons   47
Toney Douglas      30

Assists to Dunks/Layups by Asik and Smith
assistant        count
Jeremy Lin         39
James Harden       34
Chandler Parsons   16
Toney Douglas      15

 

Harden's passing ability may be above average in his position but definitely below average in PG. His high number of ASTs is mostly made up by his incredible scoring ability and the ability to draw extra defenders. Remember the 2 low bound passes to Asik from Harden in OKC which lent to TO at the end. A good PG will never throw a difficult pass to a bad known bad catcher.

 

Both are good young players and have positions they excel at, Harden can pass very well but without a doubt loves to score, Lin can attack the lanes but also seems to play the point better then he plays Shooting guard, so STFU if this is going to turn into a 'one or the other' bashing thread and have a Happy New Year!

 

I'm just glad that we have multiple guys who can make plays for both themselves and others.

 

When Lin is on the floor, the ball move more.

When Harden takes a charge, even he hit the shots but ppl stand there more. Stats could not show that....

 

Why do the guesswork?

Jeremy Lin

Code:

Assists
3-Pt	Jump	Close	Dunk	Total	Passing T/O's	Assist/Bad Pass	Passing Rating	AST48
48	32	61	33	174	35		5.0		13.9		9.1
27.5%	18.4%	35.1%	19.0%

James Harden

Code:

Assists
3-Pt	Jump	Close	Dunk	Total	Passing T/O's	Assist/Bad Pass	Passing Rating	AST48
56	27	41	20	144	45		3.2		7.2		6.7
38.9%	18.8%	28.5%	13.9%

Let just say they are both intelligent players who know how to make efficient plays for his teammates.

 

I agreed, durvasa is one of my favorite posters with objectivity instead of knee jerk reaction.

Thanks for the lessons, Happy New Year!

 

Could you list the passer ratings of all PG starters compared to both Lin & Harden. Would love to see where they rank among the League's best.

 

But generating a higher rate of assists on your possessions doesn't mean you're the best on the team at getting your teammates good shots. Whether you shoot the ball or pass to the open guy isn't simply a function of your own desire/capacity to get other players involved. It also has a lot to do with the offensive set that's being run and what the player's function is in that offense.

If we break down your stat, I guess its something like:

AstPoss% = AST / ( FGA + 0.44*FTA + AST + TOV)

A player who is hesitant to shoot the ball and will instead pass it off or penetrate into the lane will naturally have a higher AstPoss%. Same for a player who's not the first option on most plays but who's asked to deliver the ball to the first (or second) option (this tends to be the point guard).

Using your stat, if I got it right, Larry Bird (considered one of the games greatest passers) generated assists on 21% of his possessions, while Stephon Marbury generated assists on 26% of his possessions. Again, this as less to do with their respective capabilities as passers and more with their position and role within their team's offense.

 

By your definition of playmaking yes Harden is superior. But I have a different definition of being a playmaker. Ricky Rubio for example is an elite playmaker, but going on your definition of a playmaker (the ability to score) Rubio would be terrible.

I tend to think that playmaking is the ability to manage an offense be a floor general like a quarterback. Direct it's flow, hit guys in there spots at the right time, set them up for high % buckets, lead them into there shots etc. For example knowing that when passing to Omer Asik you can't pass the ball to him where he is at that moment (because he likely won't finish) but pass to him where he need to be going (ie lead him into his shots). I tend to think Lin is better at that. Also if you noticed, Hardens first instinct is to shoot & score (he tends to be prone to tunnel vision where as Lin rarely ever suffers from that) Lins is to pass. One example of this was in the most recent spurs game. The clock was winding down & there was about 5 seconds left & lin could have shot a step back jumper (harden would have done that) but he penetrated & dished to Cole for a dunk just before a shot clock violation.

This is always a fun conversation to have but I am just thankful that we have two guys on the roster that are capable of making things happen for others

 

Who gives a 5h!t besides people who have their own agenda for their favorite player and could careless about the Rockets. You know, people who complain about playing time for a player when the TEAM still wins.

The only thing that matters is we have a great backcourt that opposing teams will fear.

But to entertain this nonsense, forget the stats, it's as simple as this ---> Harden COMMANDS double and triple teams and the defense has to concentrate on him continuously. So if you got a player that always has to be doubled, it opens up the court for everyone else. Simple...

 

Which one of you is really Morey? Torocan? Durvasa?

 

How do you know what Harden would have done..??? You are just guessing. Obviously you haven't watched OKC the past couple of years when they had Harden who would play the point guard position a lot when he was on the floor.

Lin and Harden have different rolls on this team so you can't really compare.

 

C'mon dude, don't be like that. If there is a thread that people want to discuss something that interests them...if you are thinking who gives a ****, don't participate. Don't need to call it nonsense, and then insert your 'superior' analysis. Just leave people be.

 

Harden is a better playmaker and a player that sometimes deserves double teams, and you always have to watch for his shot which leaves you vulnerable to a pass.

Lin is a better defender but lets be honest, the other team are rarely worried about him starting. And his assist per game is not great, not bad, but def not great

 

I am torn on this point. In general, I agree with you that playmaking should include creating good shots for himself because he is part of the team.

However, there is intangible value of creating for others over creating for himself. Players who primarily look to create for themselves, usually labelled "ballhogs," tend to make their teammates passive, lowering team offensive effectiveness.

Good PGs understand how to balance creating for teammates and for themselves. Players like Nash and Paul are great scorers. They could be their teams' primary scorers if they chose to create for themselves as first option. But they have the kind of balance that makes them such effective leaders for their teams' offense.

I think Harden has that balance too. But his role is the primary scorer, so he has to look for his own shot first.

 

Like I said dude, these guys have different rolls on the team. Different things are expected from both of them. They both bring their own strengths to the table and they're both on a new team in a new situation so comparing them is meaningless.

And why start a thread if you don't expect to be debated.

 

Yeah, but isn't it great to have two playmakers-- often at the same time?