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It is a mistake for the US to try to overthrow the democratic government in Venezuela.

Discussion in 'BBS Hangout: Debate & Discussion' started by glynch, Feb 18, 2014.

  1. Invisible Fan

    Invisible Fan Contributing Member

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    Beats me, I only read the sports and funnies pages.
     
  2. Commodore

    Commodore Contributing Member

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    or if the president is a Republian
     
  3. Commodore

    Commodore Contributing Member

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    <blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p>Caracas: <a href="http://t.co/4DkvEPMrYu" title="http://twitter.com/RamonNavarroC/status/437271223915933696/photo/1">pic.twitter.com/4DkvEPMrYu</a></p>&mdash; Eventos UCV (@EventosUCV) <a href="https://twitter.com/EventosUCV/status/437272302208970752" data-datetime="2014-02-22T17:06:55+00:00">February 22, 2014</a></blockquote>
    <script src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script><blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p>Maracaibo a las 11:56AM Vía-&gt; @<a href="https://twitter.com/ALEXANDERMZULIA">ALEXANDERMZULIA</a> <a href="http://t.co/BNIbvChTbN" title="http://twitter.com/ALEXANDERMZULIA/status/437262138043015168/photo/1">pic.twitter.com/BNIbvChTbN</a></p>&mdash; Eventos UCV (@EventosUCV) <a href="https://twitter.com/EventosUCV/status/437272452780273664" data-datetime="2014-02-22T17:07:31+00:00">February 22, 2014</a></blockquote>
    <script src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>
     
  4. Commodore

    Commodore Contributing Member

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    <blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p>Re: Venezuela and Ukraine. I hope the President is done binge-watching House of Cards!</p>&mdash; GregGutfeld (@greggutfeld) <a href="https://twitter.com/greggutfeld/status/437290836217593856" data-datetime="2014-02-22T12:20:34+00:00">February 22, 2014</a></blockquote>
    <script src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>
     
  5. Kwame

    Kwame Contributing Member

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    The US government is extremely hostile to democracy when a democratic regime is not in Washington's interests.
     
  6. glynch

    glynch Contributing Member

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    This. Especially the conservative types who value their market "values" over democracy.

    Basically the Venezuelan elite along with their conservative allies in the US has despaired of winning democratically as the majority is becoming more entrenched against them. They had hoped to defeat the Bolivarians when Chavez died. After their narrow defeat in the presidential election and then later their crushing defeat in the legislative elections in December they are trying again to make the country ungovernable hoping that this turns more folks against Maduro. It might work or it might make the government begin to actually become an undemocratic dictatorship as they have falsely alleged over and over.
     
    #66 glynch, Feb 23, 2014
    Last edited: Feb 23, 2014
  7. glynch

    glynch Contributing Member

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    One of the false ideas about Venezuela is that the media is so dominated by the state and that the reason why the Bolivarians win the majority of the votes in elections.

    Fact:The international media are fond to talk about Chávez and Maduro’s crackdown on the Venezuelan media and their censorship of the public debate, but it turns out that, as in the West, Venezuela’s media is overwhelmingly privately owned by the country’s richest business elites. In 2012, the BBC noted that only 4.58%of the country’s TV and radio channels actually belong to the state. The three national newspapers — El Universal, El Nacional and Ultimos Noticias, accounting for 90% of the country’s readership — are all anti-government. Of the four main national TV channels, three — Venevision, Globovision and Televen, similarly accounting for 90% of the audience — are aligned with the opposition. The international media (along with the admins of important social movement pages on Facebook and Twitter) simply echo the right-wing narrative emanating from Venezuela’s highly concentrated corporate media landscape without asking any critical questions whatsoever.

    http://venezuelanalysis.com/analysis/10389
     
    #67 glynch, Feb 23, 2014
    Last edited: Feb 23, 2014
  8. NotInMyHouse

    NotInMyHouse Contributing Member

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    John Kerry.
    The International Media.
    Maduro's opposition.

    All conspiring against the Bolivarian Revolution, amirite?
     
    1 person likes this.
  9. Dubious

    Dubious Contributing Member

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    If you said:

    Plutocrats
    Oil companies that can't profit from a nationalized industry
    Anti-socialist conservative operatives in the US
    Conservative corporate backed press

    conspired against the Bolivarian Revolution, then you would be right
     
  10. NotInMyHouse

    NotInMyHouse Contributing Member

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    Let's just add your list to mine in that case as Maduro has blamed in part Kerry (and by extension the US), the International press, and his opposition for the current protests. Not to mention telling Colombia to shut up.

    In other words, blame everyone, but "yourselves".
     
  11. glynch

    glynch Contributing Member

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    Some folks including some fairly liberal folks feel comfortable relying only on the mainstream media when it comes to a foreign policy issue as we saw with the wide support for the launch of Bush's last Iraq War.

    For those who don't. Here are some wikileak cables showing how the US government has actually been conspiring to overthrow Chavez and help the leader of the current demonstrations Leopoldo Lopez, who by the way was a leader of similar demonstrations that led up to the armed coup that Chavez survived in 2002. BTW Lopez is fromm oneof the handful of richest families in venezuela and a Harvard grad. Perhaps unwisely Chavez after being rescued from the armed coup allowed Lopez to remain free in the name of reconciliation.

    Now I realize the cables stop in December 2009, so for those determined to view the current mainstream media will believe that it is a conspiracy to believe that the US could somehow be helping Leopoldo Lopez and the current leaders of the street demonstrations.
    Overthrowing Chavez

    WikiLeaks on Friday released a 2006 State Department cable detailing the Bush administration's strategy for undermining Venezuelan president Hugo Chávez by supporting alleged pro-democracy groups.

    Read more: http://thehill.com/blogs/global-aff...strategy-for-undermining-chavez#ixzz2uAMLmWru
    Follow us: @thehill on Twitter | TheHill on Facebook

    more recent cables concerning US help to Leopold Lopez and trying to help the opposition in general.

    http://venezuelanalysis.com/analysis/10388
     
  12. jdhu

    jdhu Member

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    I took a look at your link. Have you seen the site's "mission statement," and its contributing members' political leans? They are "activists," collaborators of such sites as "Green Left Weekly," etc.

    I posted this on page 2. Do you have any insight or response?

    Is this a serious post? You can have physical courts; just put a sign in front of a building. Chavez (and now Maduro) have harassed the opposition (for example, accusing Leopoldo Lopez of inciting "terrorism"), shut down/denied licenses to critical media, changed the constitution to allow Chavez to run for a 3rd term, etc.

    Please provide a link or some backing to the wild claim (only supported by countries like say, Cuba) that Venezuela has strong protections of individual freedom and expression.

    Here are two links (took 3 seconds to find) showing the damage to the Venezuelan economy as a result of Chavez's antics and policies, and the dictatorial tendencies of the government (if you question the source, then post your opposing links in response).

    http://www.economist.com/blogs/ameri...er-chávez

    http://www.cnbc.com/id/101219760
     
  13. jdhu

    jdhu Member

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    After taking a look, I assume this is the BBC article that your link references.

    Here are a few snippets:

    Nevertheless, state TV enjoys just 5.4% of the audience share, according to the media research company AGB Panamericana.

    Many Venezuelans prefer the programmes on pay TV, with 41% of households subscribing.

    However, President Chavez frequently reaches beyond the state TV's audiences by delivering speeches, known as cadenas, which must be carried on almost the entire national broadcast system.

    During the election campaign, a "cadena" interrupted a broadcast by opposition candidate Henrique Capriles, who is running in the 7 October presidential poll.

    Opposition broadcasters have been under pressure since a short-lived coup against Mr Chavez in 2002, in which he says they played a key role.

    Several critical TV and radio networks have been closed.

    In 2009, 34 radio stations had their licences revoked, officially for "technical and administrative reasons."

    RCTV, once Venezuela's most watched station, lost its terrestrial frequency in 2007, because of what Mr Chavez called its ongoing efforts to destabilise the government. It resumed broadcasting on cable as RCTV Internacional.

    The channel was taken off air in 2010 for refusing to carry Mr Chavez's obligatory broadcasts. It has been unable to broadcast via air or cable since then.

    The only terrestrial TV station still openly critical of the government, Globovision, was heavily fined for tax evasion and broadcasting on unauthorised frequencies in 2009. It was fined in 2011 for a report about a prison riot that the authorities said "promoted hatred and intolerance for political reasons."

    The government accuses the opposition media of manipulating information and "poisoning society".
     
  14. glynch

    glynch Contributing Member

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    You mention Leopoldo Lopez. In the US he would have been in prison for a long time after his involvement with the armed 2002 coup against Chavez. Perhaps you would argue that the US government would not punish a failed coup leader. BTW Lopez is proud of his past role. He led street demos leading to the coup and is trying to do it again. I know it is not popular among "libertarian" conservatives to accept elections when they lose.

    The Economist and CNBC are viewed as just slightly more moderate than Fox on policies that our oil companies want.

    As to damage to the economy. Venezuela has had economic problems forever including before Chavez. The economy grew very rapidly until the last year or so and the situation of the majority has improved. Before Chavez the vast poor who were the majority and suffered economically had no lobby with the Economist or CNBC etc. Many could not even read much less travel.
     
  15. glynch

    glynch Contributing Member

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    Well it is problematic what to do with a media owned by folks who cheered on a past undemocratic armed coup against the government and are trying to do so again.

    Fined for tax evasion is perfectly legit and in the US you can't broadcast on unauthorized frequencies.

    In the relative recent past our government required public broadcasters to cover speeches by the president and to try to educate the public about issues.
    This was hardly communism though against prevailing anti-government rhetoric.
     
  16. jdhu

    jdhu Member

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    Pretty standard tactic to attack the source (The Economist is pretty well-respected), rather than address the content. Did you read the links? I'm guessing not.
     
  17. jdhu

    jdhu Member

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    Unauthorized frequencies? It would be one thing if the Venezuelan government based any frequency-authorization decisions fairly, on technical grounds. Clearly, they regulations are CONTENT-based.

    It's funny. You cited the BBC article (well, the portions of it supporting your line of thinking, at least), which noted that about 5% of Venezuelan media is government owned. That might not seem like a high figure, unless we actually think about it. 5% is owned by the government, and acts purely as a mouthpiece for it. And, as noted, the government denies licenses to critical media.

    What is the US government's share of public media (for example)? PBS, is what, .0001% media share? 5% directly owned by the government is substantial.
     
  18. glynch

    glynch Contributing Member

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    I actually read the links. sort of weird you object toattacking the source when you led off with: " I took a look at your link. Have you seen the site's "mission statement," and its contributing members' political leans? They are "activists," collaborators of such sites as "Green Left Weekly," etc."

    You seem to object nearly per se to government ownership of any media, but cite the bbc which I believe is essentially owned by the British government.

    Here is a snippet from a more fact based analysis of whether the Venezuelan media is forbidden to criticize the government which might give you more insight as to whether you should believe the standard line wrt that issue.
    http://www.cepr.net/index.php/blogs...-provide-coverage-that-opposes-the-government
    **********
    Before surrendering to authorities for arrest last Tuesday (February 18), opposition leader Leopoldo López said, “we no longer have any free media to express ourselves in Venezuela.”

    Are these statements true or false? Similar statements are made repeatedly in the major international news outlets covering Venezuela, and are generally accepted as true. However this should be a factual question, independent of whether one is sympathetic to the opposition or the government, or to neither.

    As it turns out, data published by the Carter Center for the media coverage during the campaign for the last presidential election, in April of last year, indicate that the two candidates were fairly evenly represented in television coverage.
    ...
    Here is a long interview with María Corina Machado, one of the most prominent and hard-line opposition leaders seeking to topple the government. She also accuses the government of torturing students, and defends the most controversial aspect of the ongoing protests: she argues that the people have a right to overthrow the democratically elected government
    (btw Machado also played a prominent role i the 2002 armed coup against the government-- my addition)


    Another interesting article that is against the standard line of mainstream publications.

    Venezuela Leads Region in Poverty Reduction in 2012, ECLAC Says
    www.cepr.net › ... › The Americas Blog‎
    Center for Economic and...
    Dec 6, 2013 - The United Nations Economic Commission for Latin America and the Caribbean (ECLAC) has highlighted a slowing of progress in poverty .
     
    #78 glynch, Feb 25, 2014
    Last edited: Feb 25, 2014
  19. jdhu

    jdhu Member

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    And I read your links as well. After reading the content of your link, I noted that the website you linked has a CLEAR bias, one that they don't bother to hide (perhaps they want to publicize their lean). You brought up the BBC link, I didn't "cite" it.

    As for the latest link, that is just one, among many. Sure, you can make the claim that the rest are all bought out by "big business, big oil," whoever. The fact is, the consensus from newspapers/sources in different countries, and of different leans, indicate that Chavez (and now Maduro) sought to control the media and harass the opposition.

    Since you and I aren't "on the ground," we can only go by sources. I will take my overwhelming ones, versus your one or two.
     
  20. glynch

    glynch Contributing Member

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    Well we will just have to disagree as to whether the business and mainstream press reports without bias on Venezuela, even if they are not upfront as to any possible bias.

    As an aside, can you agree that the liberal press (let's call it that) was much more correct wrt to their analysis of the whole facts leading up to the Iraq War than the vast mainsteam, much less Fox etc. , press?
     

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