Israeli-Palestinian Roadmap - Sharon Not Complying

You made a couple of points. But I do agree that the palestinians didn't accept the UN partition. If they had, there is evidence on the same site I referenced before to show that Israel while accepting the partition wouldn't have been happy to keep to the partition.

I believe last time we argued about Said somebody posted to the truth in reference to the article you posted above. I will post the link and the article is long, and goes through point by point countering the piece you just posted.

Here is evidence exhonorating Said from the claims you and the half-baked Weiner contend to be true.

http://www.salon.com/news/feature/1999/09/07/said/
1. Said's cousin Yusuf (the nephew of his father) confirms that the house on Brenner Street in Jerusalem was the home of an extended family, and that the name of the family member on the title deed -- the legal owner was Edward's aunt -- is irrelevant. Not only Edward but also his sister Jean were born in the house, occurrences unlikely to have taken place on random visits.

Yusuf Said lives in Toronto but was never contacted by Weiner, who anyway has a difficulty with kinship ties. He describes Boulos Said, cousin of Edward's father, as his brother, for instance. As to the expulsion, Edward Said has never claimed to have suffered in person, but only to have been withdrawn from school and sent to Egypt, to be followed by every single adult member of his extended family, who were indeed ethnically cleansed and deprived of large holdings in land and business.

2. I know myself, from speaking to former teachers and pupils, that Said was -- like his father before him -- indeed a student at St. George's School in Jerusalem. An Armenian classmate named Haig Boyagian and a former instructor, Michel Marmoura, are both in North America and easily located. Weiner makes the cretinous error of citing another schoolmate, David Ezra, who while mentioned in Said's recollections does not recall things as Edward recalls them.

Maybe so: But misremembering a boy from the school is not quite the same as inventing him.

3. I quote from the concluding interview of "Edward Said: A Critical Reader," published by Blackwell in 1992, in which Said says: "To go back to the early years of my awareness of Cairo: I grew up there, spending a large part of my youth in the place, but strangely not as an Egyptian."

Elsewhere, and within easy reach of any reader, he has written of "the Cairo-Jerusalem-Beirut axis, which is the one I grew up in." Nor has he ever concealed the fact that his haute bourgeois family was well-enough cushioned from the disasters that overtook the evicted Palestinian peasantry.

It seems to me a bit much that Weiner, whose "Center" in Jerusalem is underwritten by Michael Milken of the junk-bond fortune, should dwell so enviously on this acknowledged fact. Having spent much time in both Lebanon and Egypt, Said chooses to describe the period he spent in Palestine as a youth as "formative." That seems like a matter for him -- born of two Palestinian parents -- to decide.

4. From a wealth of material about the family's long and bitter struggle for compensation I select the fact that cousin Yusuf, only three years ago, took his title deeds to Israel and reregistered his claim, while yet another family property was being torn down to make way for the new Jerusalem Hilton.

All of the above, and much besides, is spelled out with almost painful honesty in Said's forthcoming memoir "Out of Place." He deals with numerous anomalies, such as the fact that his mother, born in Nazareth, finally got a passport which gave her place of birth as Cairo. (Is it too much to ask that those with family histories extending to Riga and Vilnius be aware of discrepant documents and tangled records?)

Aware of Said's book's disclosures, Weiner now says that its veracity should be credited to him. In other words, he contends that an exhaustive book commissioned in 1989, begun in 1994 (after Edward had learned that leukemia had set a term to his life) and completed in 1998, was undertaken to rebut a half-baked article in Commentary that had not yet been written. Such conceit -- and such elegance, too.

First of all Israel denied the people making the report into Jenin, so it might not be the most accurate way to disprove a massacre. But if we presume there wasn't a massacre Israel was still criticized for their handling there were Atrocities First of all the report mentions that Israel didn't let emergency and aid workers into Jenin in order to help the wounded. And you are wrong about Israel deciding to just fight close quarters.

http://www.un.org/peace/jenin/
Operation Defensive Shield was characterized by extensive curfews on civilian populations and restrictions, indeed occasional prohibitions, on the movement of international personnel, including at times humanitarian and medical personnel as well as human rights monitors and journalists. In many instances, humanitarian workers were not able to reach people in need.

IDF is reported to have used bulldozers, tank shelling and rocket firing, at times from helicopters, in populated areas.


If you read the whole UN report it points to examples of the ISrael breaking the 4th Geneva convention the IDF prohibiting human right's workers and journalists from getting near the area. As a result injured civilians were unable to receive the help they needed.

It's not silly because Israel lied about the situation. The point stands.

http://www.wrmea.com/archives/junejuly2002/0206066.html
“According to Prime Minister Ariel Sharon,” Barr wrote, “Palestinian ‘murderers…have commandeered the church and are holding the clergymen hostage.’

By contrast, Eddy Calis of Via Dolorosa reported April 5 in an exclusive interview with lawyer Tony Salman, who was among those caught inside: “They were left with two choices,” Salman explained, “either to be killed in cold blood by the Israeli occupation forces or run for their lives to the church. They chose the latter. This happened right after the Israeli tanks shelled Omar Bin Khattab mosque last Tuesday located just across the church’s square. They ran into the church for protection. For the last 1,700 years, the Church of the Nativity has embraced the poor and the persecuted, and it will keep doing that in these difficult days, too.”

Similarly, Dean Ross Jones of St. George’s College in Jerusalem relayed by e-mail a conversation with a photographer working with an Italian news team who had been present in the church from the beginning, before being evacuated. The photographer related how he was called to one of the secondary doors: “A group of 30 to 40 Palestinians were trying to get in,” he recalled, “some armed and some not, with the plea, ‘Please help us. Only the Church can save us now. They are going to kill us.’ They were allowed to enter with the condition that the guns not be used.”

This version was confirmed by Latin Patriarch Michel Sabbah, who announced that same day, “The basilica, a church, is a place of refuge for everybody, even fighters, as long as they lay down their weapons.”

So the truth comes out that they were welcome in the church, and those inside were not held hostage contrary to what Sharone and the IDF said.

I don't support Arafat, although there was an election that put in charge, so he's not any more of a dictator than Sharon. He is authoritarian though. He's also not receiving the same money and weapons from the U.S. that Sharon is either.

The Arabs that enjoy the most freedom don't live in Israel. Morocco for instance, while far from perfect, doesn't impose curfews on it's citizens, restrict their water use descriminating based on nationality, prevent it's citizens from travelling on certain roads in their own neighborhoods, forbid them from having competitive economic businesses, etc. I have addressed the point, and I do it again now.

 

I know that is a long post, so for the abbreviated version.

1. Article shows that SAid isn't really the fraud he was claimed to be.

2. UN did indeed find that Israel endangered civilians lives in Jenin. Contrary to John Heath's claim, Israel didn't just engage in close quarters combat to cut down on civilian lives. They used bulldozers, tanks, and fired missles from helicopters. They also refused to allow human rights workers access to civilians who were in need. They also didn't respond to the UN team investigating, and the team wasn't allowed inside Jenin.

3.The seige at the church of nativity didn't actually go down the way the Israelis claim. Israeli disinformation claimed that gunman stormed the church forcing their way inside and holding the members inside hostage. It later was revealed by those inside the church at the time that the Gunmen were allowed to seek refuge in order to being shotdown by the IDF. The people inside the church were never hostages.

4.Unlike Arabs in Israel, Arabs in countries such as Morocco are allowed free access to roads, water, business opportunities and more. Arafat may be authoritarian, but he was elected and therefore isn't a dictator like John Heath claims.

 

FB, Said is a proven liar, and your shallow defense confirms my assertion than you value ideology over truth.

Israeli forces didn't allow anybody into Jenin because suicide bombers and other suicidal Palestinians seeking Paradise were lurking in the rubble. That was a battle zone for weeks.

Thank goodness that the press did go into Jenin, because they verified that the Arab press and the Liberal British press was LYING. Despite the lies, it was confirmed that no massacre of civilians occured in Jenin. In fact, more IDF members were killed than civilians.

Also, your defense of Arafat's election confirms that my disrespect for your opinion in this matter is correct.

THERE CANNOT BE A FAIR POLITICAL ELECTION WHEN THERE IS NO FREEDOM OF THE PRESS AND FREEDOM OF SPEECH.

 

And the evidence or arguments you have to counter the article I posted is where?

Instead of providing any counter points to what I've posted you merely claim my defense was weak and accuse me of valuing ideology over truth.

When you lose an argument to you always result to personal attacks?

If I were you I would go to the link I posted and read the entire article about SAid, and see who the real liar is.

And those Palestinians wouldn't have allowed wounded people to receive help? It makes no sense.

Again your facts are wrong. If you would link on the report filed to the UN you would see that 26 civilian Palestinians were killed in Jenin, and 23 IDF troops were killed there. An additional 26 Palestinian militants were also killed. The press was only allowed into Jenin long after the incident occurred.

I wasn't defending Arafat's election just pointing out that an election occurred. I also mentioned that Arafat was authoritarian in his rule.

Arafat's election happened in a climate where only Palestinians are allowed to be the leader. I agree that's not fair. Sharone's election happened under a system where only a Jewish person is allowed to be the leader. I believe it's wrong in both cases, and that neither is truly a democracy. However, in both cases people did vote for the leaders. Elections continue to happen on both sides. Neither is a dictator as you claimed.

 

Reason # 50 for Bush's Iraqi Invasion, according to Heath-- Feminist rights and gay liberation. What could be next?

The invasion made it unnecessary to drill in the Arctic Wilderness?

Got to hand it to them for hutzpah.

.

 

Returning to the topic of Israel. With much pedictability, Sharon has decided to postpone his trip to the US which was to object to the "Road Map". some Palestinian extremists set off some bombs in Israel.

So I guess we will have to wait indefinitely for him to go to Washington just to voice his objections. We can't expect any progress on the Roadmap till he has a chance to voice his objections. Meanwhile the multibillion dollar settlement expansion continues.



Sharon delays objections to Roadmap

 

Can't say I blame him. These extremists your referring to...they are Palestinians are they not? At least, they were before they decided to join up with Hamas and the likes.

If the Palestinian extremist militant groups(or however you want to label them...I think we all agree they are made up of Palestinians who turned to extremism) continue to do things like this any time a move toward peace is made, then how do we expect any progress on anything peaceful? Aren't they basically saying "my way or the highway"? Obviously, that is not going to get you any closer to peace. Are they still living a myth that the uprising will get them any closer to their own state? Do they even want their own state? Are these the actions of people who want their own state? Four suicide bombings over the weekend in response to a meeting between the prime ministers trying to move the peace process forward.

Therefore, I think the roadmap is doomed to complete and utter failure. I don't even see a chance of this succeeding based on how the militants operate freely. I heard a quote the other day which I found to be pretty insightful. It was something which described to Arab people about why they probably feel the West is at war with Islam when, in actuality, we are trying to root out and eliminate only the evil-doers. It went something like:

"A fight must occur between the good and bad elements within a civilization to root out the bad elements. If not, then there will be a fight between civilizations to root out the bad elements."

This was used to decribe why America is fighting the war on terrorism to an Arab who thought the West was at war with Islam and Arabs as a whole. It was meant to put into context that if the Arab civilization isn't willing to look within themselves and deal with the bad elements of the society(mainly, extremism and terrorism), then that civilization(Islam/Arabs) will ultimately be confronted by another civilization(the West) to route out those elements for them.

That sums up what we are doing and it sums up what Israel is doing. Granted, none of us probably agree with the actions or methods(or timing of such actions and methods) that are taken to defeat terrorism and militancy. However, I think we all agree that it must be confronted. Otherwise, then it just goes unchecked and gets worse. If Israel were to withdraw from the occupied territories today, then would the suicide bombings by Palestinians stop without a security apparatus in place? I hardly think so. This would be capitalized on as a weakness on the part of the Israelis and the extremists would take advantage to wreak more havoc. Somewhere....sometime....the roadmap to peace has to start with a cease fire. Israel nor anyone else but the Palestinian leadership can obtain a cease fire. The Palestinian leadership may have to overcome the bad within their society by force which they have obviously been unwilling to do to date. Israel can fight the bad elements of Palestinian society all they want but it's not going to do anything other than kill more good/bad people and lead to more violence. In order for Israel to control that situation in its entirety, then it would have to render those groups and extremist elements extinct. That would be impossible because violence will always incite more violence and extremism.

I want more than anything for the Palestinians to have their own state and live in peace next to Israel. But, their actions to date over those within their society have indicated they want anything but peace. The roadmap...even if they don't see eye to eye on all the elements...is a tool to get them back talking to each other and on the road to a peaceful settlement. But, before it even starts...there are those who want to stop it in its tracks. They don't even want to get started. Why is that exactly? They don't want peace? They don't want their own state? They want to continue to retaliatory attacks cycle? Why? They can't even get to a point to discuss the roadmap without terrorist acts to sabotage the effort. That is exactly what these terrorists intended to do. You still have to ask why? If they want Israel to quit occupying their territories, then this is not how it is going to happen. You think Israel will just get tired and throw in the towel?

Therefore, in the end, I believe if the Palestinians continue to not take actions within their own society to reign in militant groups and even destroy them if necessary, then their fate will continue to be determined by militants and militant actions regardless of what the good Palestinians want. That fate...will be a continued war. The good and the bad within Palestinian society have not had their battles. Some would try to argue the same on the Israeli side based on their actions. However, I feel that if the Palestinians ceased their hostilities, then Israel would have no reason to continue their operations against such hostilities and things would get better day by day and peace could actually move along via the roadmap. The reality is Palestinian militants are still calling all the shots. As long as they continue to suicide bomb, then they will get nowhere fast. If their goal is continued cycles of violence, then that goal has clearly been met.

 

once again...these groups approach the negotiating tables, and terrorists rise up and give them a reason to back off. if i'm sharon i'm thinking, "how in the world could we ever have peace here?"

 

As I probably typed my reply above, a fifth terror attack or suicide bombing occurred at an Israeli mall. I guess its time for Sharon to pound his hammer now. I would estimate about 20 people in Palestinian areas will die at the hands of the Israeli military due to this latest outbreak of suicide bombings. At least half will be innocent people who die.

This is nothing more than a death numbers game now. No number is too high apparently. My only question is when and what the final score will be?

That's too bad about the roadmap. I guess it will never be an appropriate time to discuss it.

 

It's the same old thing. These attacks have gone on for years because there is no Palestinian state. Sharon uses any pretext to try to scuttle any negotiations.

Often times if things are too peaceful he will go and assasinate some Hamas guys, till he gets some retaliation. If I recall in the last month or so prior to the bombings, Israel was unusually aggressive in their actions.

Sharon and Hamas, two peas in a pod.

 

http://abcnews.go.com/sections/world/GoodMorningAmerica/mideast030519.html

Another Attack
Suicide Bomber Strikes Shopping Mall in N. Israel; 4 People Reportedly Killed
The Associated Press


J E R U S A L E M, May 19— A suicide bomber detonated explosives at the entrance to a crowded mall in northern Israel today, killing at least four shoppers and wounding 20 in the fifth such attack in three days.

 

You equate killing members of a terrorist organization with blowing up people at a shopping mall?

 

No but what I do equate to terrorist organizations is the practice used by the IDF of using Palestinian citizens to approach first in dangerous situations in case houses are trapped. The IDF has done this and civilians were killed. That is targeting civilians just like the terrorists do.

As for Sharon calling off meeting about the Road Map to Peace, what difference does it make, since he was never complying to begin with, and then bullied our president about it, until Bush backed down.

Of course these senseless acts of terrorism from Palestinian extremists hurt their cuase immensely. One of the reasons that public opinion about civil rights in the U.S. changed was because the news showed non-violent protestors being chewed up by police dogs, beaten, hosed, bombed, and civil right's workers murdered.

Now Israel does all of that and more to the Palestinians, but the problem is the world sees groups intentionally going after civilians, so the Palestinians aren't as readily accepted as the victims.

This is sad, because they are victims, of brutality, theft, discrimination, etc. Many of the acts of discrimination is based solely on what nationality a person was born.

S. Africa had violent conflict early on, but after the SNC adopted different tactics the world focussed on the oppression they lived under, and the human rights abuses they suffered. The Palestinians really need to learn what works and what hurts their cause.

 

There have been 5 suicide/homocide bombings in the last 48 hours, and one killed a pregnant woman.

It is, and has been for some time now, the responsibility of the Palestinian Authority to police the extremist groups within the occupied areas. They agreed to this responsibility, but instead were caught helping to kill civilians.

The fanatical Islamists who support this violence have now said that their goal is to derail the latest peace objective. I hope they are all shot dead like the animals that they are.

 

Yes those bombings are horrible. The Palestinians aren't doing enough to stop them, and what little they do is hindered by the fact that Israel has practically destroyed the entire Palestinian security force. They don't have too much police to go after or halt the terrorists.

Then when they do when there is battle between Arafat's group and the terrorists 26 people end up dying. It's not being handled well at all. That battle between Arafat's group and the militant islamic group happened just today.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3041451.stm

 

If the Palestinian extremist militant groups(or however you want to label them...I think we all agree they are made up of Palestinians who turned to extremism) continue to do things like this any time a move toward peace is made, then how do we expect any progress on anything peaceful? Aren't they basically saying "my way or the highway"?

I think you deal with it the same we dealt with extremist groups during the Civil Rights era. You say "to hell with you - we're going to move forward regardless of what you do" and fight them in a separate fight.

Do you think, every time the KKK did something ridiculous, the civil rights movement should have been halted? All you're doing by doing that is encouraging these terrorist groups - they know that all it takes is one bomb to prevent peace, and that's their objective. What Israel is doing is essentially giving them veto power over the peace process, which is exactly what they want.

Sometimes you have to say that we're going to do the right thing and terrorist groups aren't going to stop us. Obviously the current strategy hasn't worked. If the bombings are going to continue occurring in the current environment, why not try to move forward and see what happens? Maybe once Palestinians actually feel like freedom is a possibility, they'll be less interested in supporting groups like Hamas and more interested in establishing their own lives and futures. It happened in the mid 1990's (?) when the violence died down for a couple of years - why can't it happen again?

 

What makes you think Palestinians will crack down on terrorists when they are given there own state? Maybe they will, but the idea just sounds far-fetched to me. Maybe it will work now that Palestinians realize that democracy are real possibilities in other nations like Afghanistan, but I'm not sure.

And the difference in the Civil Rights era was that the violence and crimes white people commited were illegal. The government (eventually) cracked down on these people and with force helped integrate schools. Further, white racists did not have to be killed, but Palestinian terrorists will have to be killed, and I'm not sure that the Palestinians have the power or will to do that.

 

What makes you think Palestinians will crack down on terrorists when they are given there own state? Maybe they will, but the idea just sounds far-fetched to me.

I think people are far less interested in blowing themselves up and trying to blow others up if they have a future to look forward to. To me, that's the core of it. Besides which, what would it hurt to try to move forward? It's not like the status quo has worked. Why not make the first move and stop building settlements? They really serve no purpose at this point except to annoy Palestinians and hurt international support. At the very least, it takes away a good chunk of the international outcry directed at Israel.

 

Originally posted by glynch
It's the same old thing. These attacks have gone on for years because there is no Palestinian state. ....

That's BS.

The attacks will increase with peace talks since hamas et al don't want any negotiated settlement with Israel.

 

Another interesting twist...

Angry Palestinians Lash Out at Militants
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tm...p/20030520/ap_on_re_mi_ea/israel_palestinians

I think someone should step in and help these folks build new homes and farms (preferably Israel, but US if they won't). They are clearly innocents caught in the middle.