Israeli-Palestinian Roadmap - Sharon Not Complying

What is the matter Max? Did I hurt your feelings?

You big softie, I did answer your question. The answer lies in the morality of the opposing cultures.

 

The answer lies in the morality of the opposing cultures

Do you know, Heath, this sounds very Hitlerian.

 

More than half the Jewish population of Israel - 53 percent - is opposed to full equal rights for Israeli Arabs, according to a survey conducted last month by the Israel Democracy Institute.

The general conclusion of the survey, which is dubbed the "Israeli Democracy Survey" and will be conducted every year, is that Israel is basically a democracy in form more than in substance, and that it has yet to internalize fully the concept of democracy
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Another article from Haaretz.

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Unfortunately the type of attitude of Heath, seems to be prevalent in Israel. Once you take the position that all the right is on the side of Israel who can do no wrong when opposing the immoral culture of the other side you come up with majority support for this type of thing. It is very similar to the attitudes of the pre Civil Rights South.

 

The Arab culture does not foster equal rights for woman, equal rights for all religions, freedom of expression artistically, freedom of speech, freedom of press, self-determination of governmental policy, etc., etc...

The Arab culture has a systemized disinformation machine operating through their press and educational system that teaches their people to hate. Some Saudi schools teach children that Jews use the blood of Arabs in religious rituals. Palestinian schools teach children that Israelis poison their water supply in an effort to render the Palestinian people sterile.

Call me whatever you want Glynch, but for you to say that the Arab Culture is morally equal to our culture is sheer lunacy. The victims, of course, are the common people of the Middle East who suffer under oppressive dictatorships.

What is stronger Glynch- your compassion for the everyday oppressed Arab or your hatred of Republicans?

 

So what? Their argument is ridiculous when compared to my argument. What is a worse scenario-

A man and woman are allowed to end a marriage, or women are treated like property?

A percentage of people abuse drugs and alcohol, or cruel punishment and summary execution is instituted to combat drug and alcohol abuse.

Homosexuals are free to express themselves openly, or homosexuals are branded as immoral people who have no right to their natural urges. (Yes, I think a significant percentage of the Homosexual community was born gay, so they should have the same rights afforded to us all.)

People have a right to watch trash TV, or the government decides what we see and hear.

What is amazing to me is that the Arab culture supports many of the biases and prejudices that Liberals abhor in the West, but Liberals turn around and tell me not to judge these mindsets in the Arab culture. What hypocrisy!!

Ku Klux Klan- sexist, fascist, homophobic
Arab Culture- sexist, fascist, homophobic

Khan, either humans have inalienable rights or we don't. If you think we do, then those rights don't stop at our borders. If you truly care about the Arab people, you would argue for the inalienable rights of Arabs.

 

honestly, what are you talking about? did you hurt my feelings? ummm...no. i have no idea who you are, johnheath. not the first clue.

no..you never answered my question...my question was, how can you say, in the same thread that:

1. israel commits war crimes

and

2. israel has always treated its citizens with respect

and have them jive...particularly when we're talking about war crimes against the palestinians living in israel.

i do not dispute that the palestinians targetting civilians are evil...i will flat out call that evil. because it is. but i don't assume that all palestinians think it's a good idea to target civilians. but i'm not gonna sit here and pretend that the israelis have clean hands in this mess.

 

The Arab culture does not foster equal rights for woman, equal rights for all religions, freedom of expression artistically, freedom of speech, freedom of press, self-determination of governmental policy, etc., etc... and on and on ad nauseam.

Well I guess I should say that Jewish culture and those like you who are kneejerk supporters. regardless of your "culture", ethnicity or religion don't foster equal rights.

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More than half the Jewish population of Israel - 53 percent - is opposed to full equal rights for Israeli Arabs, according to a survey conducted last month by the Israel Democracy Institute.

The general conclusion of the survey, which is dubbed the "Israeli Democracy Survey" and will be conducted every year, is that Israel is basically a democracy in form more than in substance, and that it has yet to internalize fully the concept of democracy.

more from Haaretz

Demonizing others and their culture to the extreme is the hall mark of Hitlerianism. It allows you to kill the others without remorse.

 

Are you being purposely obtuse? Who said that all Israelis have clean hands?

The difference is the cultural acceptance of targeted violence against civilians. We have two cultures clashing, and the barbaric mores of the Palestinian Arabs are the true source of the violence.

 

Glynch, give me your address, and I will send you a dictionary.

I never demonized the Arab people- in fact, I feel as if I am the only person in this debate that is arguing for the Arab people.

I demonized the Arab culture. "Culture" and "people" are two very distinct things- look it up.

 

Don't ever accuse me of belittling people when you call someone insignificant in this manner.

 

One more thing Glynch, upon rereading this, I burst out laughing.

What a pathetic attempt at debate!!

If my stance were "Hitlerian", I would want to keep the Palestinian people controlled in a fascist police state. I would close their borders, so they could not leave their "prison". The option to go to Jordan, Syria, or Egypt would be off the table.

I would control their press, and use the people as my puppets to achieve my political and financial goals.

I would subject them to cruel and unusual punishment, and execute them if they rebelled against me.

If a significant number of Palestinians rebelled, I would kill 20 to 30 thousand of them at a time, without regard for gender or age.

Oh wait, that is the Arab plan for the Palestinian people.

Never mind.

 

i'm not sure why we're disagreeing anymore. i've lost the substance of what we disagreed on. i think i said you won't find a good guy in this battle...i think that was it.

 

If my stance were "Hitlerian", I would want to keep the Palestinian people controlled in a fascist police state. I would close their borders, so they could not leave their "prison". The option to go to Jordan, Syria, or Egypt would be off the table.

This is the typical response from a hysterical supporter of Israel. Nothing they do is as bad as the Holocaust, therefore they are virtually above criticism for any actions.

My point is that your complete negation of all thing Muslim or Arab, with virtual no nuance, is the start on the road to Naziism. Do you think that Hitler initially ran on a platform of the Holocaust?

This road path is widely realized by such groups as the Anti Defamation League (Jewish) and the American-Arab Anti-Discrimination Committee.

Perhaps you are just overwraught in your defense of Sharon and current Israelie policies and you do not mean to come out with such despicable contempt and hatred for all Muslims and Arabs. I don't know.

 

insignificant?? TJ...I never said he was insignifcant...he asked if i had my feelings hurt by him and inserted a smilie sticking out his tongue...i merely said i didn't know him well enough to have him hurt my feelings...i have no idea who he is. i don't even really know him well from these boards, yet. certainly not belittling...certainly not talking trash to him...or closing any cases.

somehow i doubt he took it as an insult...it certainly wasn't intended that way...but we're all appreciative that you're keeping a close lookout, TJ. thanks for your continued hard work.

 

PITIFUL!!

Not only did I point out what I found immoral in the Arab culture, but I pointed out flaws in the Israeli culture too. I never said that there weren't wonderful aspects or terrible aspects in both cultures- I only generally compared them.

You have reduced yourself to name-calling, so I now choose to lower myself to your level.

You are a miserable jerk-off.

(The term "miserable jerk-off" is being used in the spirit of the new Politics forum, would never be used in any other forum, and is reserved for Glynch exclusively. Thank you for your attention in this matter.)

 

Heath, I've reread the thread. I find that you initially were initially moderate, realistic and interesting in your discussion of the road map to peace and the fate of Sharon and Arafat etc. You were not so anti-Arab/ Muslim. Many supported your posts. I found your predictions interesting.
I must admit that I had read those posts a day or two ago and forgotten them..

I then based my reaction largely to a series of objectionable posts beginning with your: You big softie, I did answer your question. The answer lies in the morality of the opposing cultures.

This is an objectionable post insulting to Arabs and Muslims in general. Others objected, too.

Khan expressed it better: The irony of us questioning the "morality" of their culture, is that many extremists on their part use the same argument.

My Hitler statement, was in that line of thought. I do admit that even though Hitler is one prominent example of the "many extremists on their part use the same argument" to use Khan's much less inflamatory language , using Hitler in this context as an example of what denouncing in totalitistic terms the "morality" of a whole cultrue, was a very bad idea.

You then have another statements:

Call me whatever you want Glynch, but for you to say that the Arab Culture is morally equal to our culture is sheer lunacy. The victims, of course, are the common people of the Middle East who suffer under oppressive dictatorships.

The Arab culture has a systemized disinformation machine operating through their press and educational system that teaches their people to hate.

Ku Klux Klan- sexist, fascist, homophobic Arab Culture- sexist, fascist, homophobic


You then try to tone down your overall thrust. I never demonized the Arab people- in fact, I feel as if I am the only person in this debate that is arguing for the Arab people.

I demonized the Arab culture. "Culture" and "people" are two very distinct things- look it u

However you just don't seem to be able to help yourself and you're soon back to the: If a significant number of Palestinians rebelled, I would kill 20 to 30 thousand of them at a time, without regard for gender or age. Oh wait, that is the Arab plan for the Palestinian people

Your distinction between Arab people and the culture which you willing admit to demonizing is not going to cut in. If someone said: "I love the Jewish people, but their culture is inferior and (meaning the culture of all Jews) is blank, blank,blank, using extemely derogatory terms. The Jewish people just need to totally change their culture," It would, I'm sorry, be percived as Anti-Semitism.

It is the negative stereotyping of the whole Arab culture that is the problem. When you fail to state that there are any variations whatsoever between Arabs in any part of the world or that all Arab culture is the same, you are getting into objectionable territory.


YOu have said: The term "miserable jerk-off" is being used in the spirit of the new Politics forum,

I really don't think that this is appropriate, even in this forum, and you should refrain from this type of behavior.
Where are the moderators????

 

Culture-


1. The totality of socially transmitted behavior patterns, arts, beliefs, institutions, and all other products of human work and thought.

2. These patterns, traits, and products considered as the expression of a particular period, class, community, or population: Edwardian culture; Japanese culture; the culture of poverty.

3. These patterns, traits, and products considered with respect to a particular category, such as a field, subject, or mode of expression: religious culture in the Middle Ages; musical culture; oral culture.

4. The predominating attitudes and behavior that characterize the functioning of a group or organization.

I guess you don't get the distinction between the predominant Middle Eastern Arab culture, and the actual population.

I have carefully pointed out the fascist practices of the Middle Eastern Arab culture that subjugate woman and suppress freedom. If you want to argue that I am wrong in my opinion, then make your points, but quit with the Hitler nonsense- it sounds pathetic.

By supporting the absolute rights of Arab dictators and fanatic Muslim Mullahs to rule over their populations unchecked, you support the oppression of the Arab people.

The Arab people, like all people, deserve freedom. They deserve to have the prevailing culture of their countries eliminated. Glynch, everything you say you oppose in America (such as racism, bigotry, religious fanaticism, and fascism) is alive and well in the Middle East.

Quit being a hypocrite and decide if fascism is acceptable or not.

 

Heath, first you can't just wiggle out of your offensive tone of your comments by a dictionary definition of culture. If you make offensive remarks about Jewish culture or Black American culture, you can't just say it makes no difference if your actual words are offensive. The same thing applies to Arabs and Muslims.

If you inisist in using this type of rhetoric you wil be seen as racist, even if you claim what you are doing is for their own good.

Now you say you support women's rights, gay rights, democracy, human rights, the rights of people to self determination. You are correct I am for these values.

Because you claim to be so in favor of these values you insist on the right to impose militarily, if necessary , these values on Arab populations. If anyone is against that you claim they support fascism and at the same time you claim not to name call.

You will have to excuse the skepticism when suddenly conservatives espouse these issues when it supports what is objectively seizing what are apparently the most valuable oil fields in the world. The timing of the sudden switch from oil and wmd to feminist and gay rights of the Arab people is just suspicious

Traditionally the conservatives have belittled gay rights and feminism. Can you deny this? Conservaties have fought against, the Equal Rights amendment, making it easier to register to vote, etc. The Civil Rights bills were passed against heavy conservative opposition. I'm sorry, but this is widely known.

You have no plans nor are you advocating invading many of the countries in Africa or Asia that don't have these rights. Conservatives have backed dictators throughout the world for decades and even overthrown democratially elected governments that they didn't like. Conservatives like to claim that this was the distant past. However many of the very figures in the current administration were involved in supporting dictators in Central America against their people. They supported Arab dictators like Sadam and still support dictators in ex Soviet Republics and small emirates in the Middle East. It would be different if, like reformed racists they have renouned their past support for dictatorship, but these guys have never done that.

So you will have to accept that many find this sudden militant support for democracy, feminism and gay rights to be suspicious.

 

Your bashing of all conservatives based on the samples of those who opposed the civil rights movement and those who propped up dictators is absurd. You know that there are many conservatives who do support equal rights for everyone. That is the number one conservative argument against affirmative action. Or maybe you don't know. You are painting nearly 125,000,000 Americans with your very broad brush. Maybe you truly believe that all conservatives are racist, sexist, homophobes, out only to strive for the almighty dollar. Maybe you really think that we say whatever we think others want to hear to get our hands on the precious Arab oil. Maybe to you, Hitler is the role model of every conservative. What a sad, sad little world you are living in.