No, from last week. Are you denying that Hamas uses these tactics? Are you on Hamas' side? Are you a terrorist supporter?
SJC you know I respect you as a poster, we are on the same page on many subject (obviously not on the issue of Islam). But these are the type of post why I try to avoid these threads. Questioning wether something is propoganda or not does not make you a terrorist supporter. (that being said I expect that there is some history between you two, so I think your post is more about other posts). You are better than that (and to all the posters saying he is really not, you are usually posting the same type of posts so do not act holier than him). I hate the term Terrorist, since it is basically the same as freedom fighter, it just depends on which side people support. In the past the dutch media called the Chechnyans freedom fighters (against the evil russians), but since a couple of years they call them terrorists. I expect them to become freedom fighters again once the relationship between Russia and the Netherlands had detoriated. You seem to be very critical of eveything Hamas and the Palistinians do (and believe the most negative possible), and are far less critical about how Israel acts. Like I said both sides use propaganda to deliver their message, and both sides have done terrible things. The way you post you really give the impression that you believe this is all the Palistianians fault, is that really the case? I can believe that some Hamas warriors are shooting rockets from buildings were people live. However I do not believe many people choose to be human shields, and it does seem like Israel could care less about colletoral damage (when it are palistianians). Even if it is true and those rockets were shot from a school. Israel should never bomb or destroy that school when there are children in there. Since it is clear Israel is a much more powerful party I expect them to use constraint and not bomb houses were there are children (and not provoke the Palistinians by building houses etc at areas that are not officially part of Israel). Like I said both sides do terrible crazy things, but for some reason many people only see the horrors commited by the party they do not support.
I am not denying it and I am not on Hamas' side. I am on Palestine's side. Maybe they store stuff in certain places. But that doesn't give the IDF the right to blow up a place where there are children taking shelter. Is it justifiable to kill children even though they play no part in this? Just so a weapons storage can be taken out? And why does a place that is storing rockets need to be blown up, anyway? Why weren't these places taken out BEFORE people were forced to take refuge there? Are there reports of Hamas actually firing from these buildings when they were taken out? No idea why I asked so many question, I know most of them will go unanswered.
Your questions are legitimate questions. I will try to answer them. As I posted, the IDF gave them 4 hours to evacuate (actually almost 5). I don't think it is justifiable to kill children, but overall, I believe the Israeli side that they are trying to avoid it, and I am convinced that Hamas WANTS these children dead, just because their hate is so outrageous that it is worth it to them to have Palestinian children murdered, just so they can blame Israel. If you even watched the video clips I posted, you can see themselves saying it. And you agree they are using these tactics. It is then at the very least "being blind on one eye" to solely blame Israel for that. It's just a fact that the Israelis just want to protect themselves - I don't think anyone can deny that Hamas has taken to - suicide bombings - building terror tunnels - kidnapping and murdering people Hamas leaders say that Palestinian children dying is part of their own strategy - they are not even hiding it. They WANT it. Again, what is Israel supposed to do? It's a huge moral dilemma, but if some guy is shooting at me while at the same time hiding behind an innocent civilian, what am I supposed to do? I can never shoot back? That's basically what Hamas is doing - it's the worst of the worst. And the problem is, the Palestinians made these people their leaders, so they take some responsibility. Whose fault is it really? I say it's the fault of the cowardly guy who is shooting at me and then hides behind women and children. Yes, there are reports of Hamas actually firing from populated places. Again, they have publicly said that it is their strategy and they are doing it. Why does a place that is storing rockets need to be blown up? Maybe because you don't want these rockets to get fired at you? The one thing I will give you is that it seems contradictory to me to say "you have 4 hours to evacuate" and then blow up the place to get rid of rockets, because obviously what Hamas will do is tell the civilians to stay, but use the 4 hours to move out their rockets. But what is Israel supposed to do? If they strike immediately, so they can destroy the rockets, more civilians will die. If they warn, Hamas will move out their rockets. In any case, Israel is dealing with terror. The culprit is Hamas, not Israel. That is my strong conviction. There are reports that the children might actually have gotten killed by a Hamas rocket. http://www.jewishpress.com/news/bre...-that-hit-unrwa-school-killing-17/2014/07/24/
"jewishpress" My questions apply to all attacks on schools, hospitals, and mosques. Why are there reports of 5 year olds and other children being shot by snipers? Why does a dude looking for his family in rubble get shot, then shot 2 more times while he is laying on the ground? That is cold blooded murder.
I totally disagree with this statement. NOBODY is a "freedom fighter" to me that intentionally murders civilians. Anyone who does that is a terrorist. And now, before people come and say "but that is what Israel does" - no, it is not - they are defending themselves against terrorists who indiscriminately fire rockets at Israeli civilians - sadly, the terrorists are putting their own civilians in harm's way, so they can win a propaganda war - because they cannot win militarily (fortunately). To me, the Chechnyans who blew up people in a Moscow theater were NEVER freedom fighters. If Dutch media called them that, they were completely misguided. It's all the fault of the people who fire rockets and commit terror acts against Israel. Sadly, the Palestinians elected those exact same people. I don't believe in collective guilt, but how do you deal with that? Germany got bombed to pieces - not all Germans were Nazis. But without that, the war might not have ended and the Nazis would still be in power. Just like the Nazis were holding Germany hostage, Hamas is holding the Palestinians hostage. Sadly, the spiral of violence is indeed not helping, as it will drive more people on the Palestinian side to sympathize with Hamas, due to their exposure to propaganda. The intelligent ones should turn against Hamas, though, and seek peace with Israel. I don't believe that. I do believe that Israel has a right to defend itself. They gave them notice to evacuate. They had 4 hours. They must have been told to stay in there. I am against those settlements as well. But they are no justification for building terror tunnels, suicide bombing, firing rockets. You keep arguing as if "both sides are the same". Sadly, I think you are mistaken. One side - the Palestinian side - is ruled by terrorists who want the death of their own people. The Israeli side just wants to protect its people. The difference is, similar to what Netanyahu (of whom I am not a fan, but he is right on this) said: The Israelis fight to try to protect their people from missiles. Hamas would rather see their own people dead, so they can protect their missiles.
Do you hate Jews? What is wrong with "jewishpress"? Are you showing your bias? This seems like Hamas propaganda to me. If it actually happened, it's not ok. But there has been a lot of proof of Hamas spreading lies, and even making up scenes of civilians being killed. Hamas is clearly fighting a propaganda war and trying to exploit dead children for political gain.
Great article. arno_ed, please read this. --------------------------------------- Shalom, motherf****r. I don’t know how to write this without sounding like the kind of person I’m about to sound like, but sometimes you’ve just got to write it like you feel it. And I feel this. I un-friended a ‘friend’ from Facebook the other day. To be honest, he wasn’t really a friend. He was a professional aquaintance and one whose talent I respect. But that’s it. I un-friended him because he crossed a line. I don’t mind that he didn’t write to ask how we’re doing here in Israel. People have their lives and we’re not the center of the world. No. He started posting videos and images that reek of anti-semitism and an anti-Israel bias the likes of which are posted by people who clearly hate my country. And i saw these posts. A video by an English elected official who spewed such anti-Israel rhetoric that it was borderline hatred. And a post that apparently Robert De Niro made claiming we’re an apartheid state. (we’re not – and that was another spreading of an untruth). He crossed a line on a day – the other day – that 13 regular Israeli fathers, sons or brothers here were killed defending my country. Men drawn into a war they did not want to fight, but fought to protect their families, friends, and country – and to protect ME. A war others will continue to fight because to not fight it means we will perish. I don’t mean that we will lose our country, but as you can see by the turmoil around us in the Middle East (that has nothing to do with us) we will lose our lives. He crossed a line following 10 days in which we, the citizens of Israel, have been bombarded the length of the 10 hour drive north to south of our country, and two our drive east to west of our country (that’s the size of Israel) with missiles intended to murder Israelis, no matter what gender, what age, what profession and what religion they follow. (We have over a million Israeli-Arabs living here within our borders as citizens with full rights). And as I write, coming home from a day of work and having put my son to bed in his crib, we are still being bombarded. He crossed another line after he saw that I unfriended him when he wrote an email to me saying that it’s ‘…funny to be de-friended for posting a statement from an elected official. As a Jew you should realize that mass murder is never justified’. (His identity will remain hidden, of course). First of all, don’t give me that ‘as a Jew’ crap. I don’t need to be a Jew to realise that mass murder isn’t justified. I need to be a decent human being. Secondly, I don’t give a damn that he was an elected official – he said some preposterous, disgusting and very untrue things – and history is full of misguided elected officals. And third, we’re mass murderers? My country accepts an Egyptian-proposed Gaza cease-fire twice and Hamas keeps firing away. They aim rockets at civilians while we go at great lengths to avoid civilians actually calling them in their areas and dropping warning charges, to give innocents a chance to escape. That’s unprecedented in warfare history. We leave Gaza for a chance at peace 9 years ago and for 9 years we got rockets, hate education, underground tunnels built with the purpose of entering Israeli territory so radicals can murder and kidnap Jews? This is what we get for leaving Gaza unilaterally 9 years ago. And we’re mass murderers? No – fool. Ours is not the behavior of mass murderers. I’m tired of the argument lobbed against us where I read people saying it’s ‘not fair’ because more Palestinians have died than Israelis. Of people asking ‘why are we complaining when we’re the stronger ones?’ My heart bleeds for every innocent killed no matter what side they’re on. Palestinain or Israeli innocents – it matters not. But I will not apologise for surviving. For surviving missiles intended to kill me. The fact they didn’t kill me doesn’t mean they weren’t sent with the intention to murder. We have a defence system, shelters, evacuation procedures and governments who take care of us – I will not apologise for living and surviving thanks to being prepared because we have a culture that celebrates our lives and cherishes them instead of sending 10-year old children to be fighters and bombers. I will not apologise for having a business, a home, a family and friends here who want normal lives and to live in peace with our neighbors. I will not apologise for existing and I want nothing more than to co-exist quietly with neighbors who accept me here. But this is not what Hamas wants. Let me be very clear. Hamas is trying to kill ME. My family. My baby son. All of us here. That is their purpose. Get it through your heads – that is what is happening. And it’s VERY personal. For all of us here. Our Israeli civilians – people like me – are being targeted to die. Palestinian innocents on the other side are dying because my army is trying to protect us from thugs operating in those areas who are launching rockets at my populated cities. If Palestinian innocents are dying it’s because of jihadists and terrorists (other names for thugs), but NOT because of the State of Israel that is trying to protect its citizens as any sovereign country would do. People are going to die. Innocents will die and it’s awful and it’s ugly. But we have to do what we have to do now. That is not a tone of justification. It’s me telling you the way it is – and believe me, we’re already paying the price with the blood of our people…of families who will never sit together again. Play together again. Hold eachother again. This is not a game. I was speaking to my father this evening and he advised me, like a good father does bless him, to not speak my mind on Facebook. Why go to the trouble? But he’s looking out for his son knowing I’ll face backlash. Look, we remained silent in the 30′s and look where it got us. We hoped rational people would see sense and refused to believe that people were capable of evil. And where did that get us? Trainrides straight to the gas chambers by REAL mass murderers. And there are those today who follow directly in the footsteps of the Nazis and who state proudly that they want to see all Jews dead, all of israel wiped off the face of the earth. (It is in Hamas’ offical charter – I’m serious – look). And why? Not because of ‘stolen land’ and politics but because they’re misguided, pitiful, hateful people who hate Jews and don’t give a damn about their people. Because anyone who gives a damn about their people would try giving them a future and not use them as pawns in a sick game of death and 72 virgins. No, I will not remain silent while lies are spread about my country, my people, my culture, my values. I will be the FIRST in line to condemn my leaders and countrymen and women when they do wrong – as we do. (And we do). But we are in the right here and I will not be quiet. If anyone doesn’t understand any of the above; if anyone doesn’t get it; if any of my friends are going to post anti-Israel messages in a time where over 500 Palestinians have tragically died in this current conflict yet you remained silent while almost 200,000 Arabs were murdered by Arabs these past few years; if you’re not writing about Assad using chemical weapons against his people; if you’re not writing about ISIS who crucified 8 christians the other day and who are telling Iraqi Christians ‘convert, pay tax, or die’; if you only have criticism for the State of Israel that is doing EVERYTHING in its power to avoid civilian losses to Palestinians during a war; if you’re going to do nothing but sit wherever you’re sitting and just dish out your anti-Israel dirt while rockets are being aimed at my house, family and friends as our boys are fighting to protect us – and you’re going to dish it out simply because we’re living in this land and you haven’t got a clue as to our connection to it; if you’re going to join the anti-semitic and anti-Israel demonstrations flaring up in the world like we’re seeing in France, Turkey, Berlin, most Arab states and even in the US that have nothing to do with this conflict but are really just expressions of hatred directed at Jews and Israelis (and these expressions will be directed at the host countries soon); if you’re going to stay quiet and just accept, then go ahead and unfriend me from Facebook now because you’re probably no friend of mine. Know this: when someone tries to end my life, IT IS PERSONAL. And if you’re adding fuel to the fire by posting crap that in some small way will contribute to my demise, then again - un-friend me now. Because you can have the hatred, the twisted, the sick and evil and be a part of that – or you can have me. But you can’t have both. Shalom, motherf****r. http://blogs.timesofisrael.com/shalom-motherfr/
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This looks very, very, very fake. It also seemed like a shot (acoustically) that was fired from a close distance. Looks like a cheap, typical Hamas propaganda video. That said, if it isn't, then it isn't right. But we still don't know who fired the shots.
I agree. I do not really care if people intentionally target civilians or if they die as a result of collateral damage. A casualty is a casualty. And that is why I do believe what Israel is doing is similar to what Hamas is doing. Killing to many innocent civilians. Agreed. It is good to see you also see that Israel is not completely free of blame. I do not understand why they do this, it only provokes violence. And it also does not help in the propaganda war. This is where we disagree. I think both sides are trying to protect their people, and both sides do not have enough respect for the lives of the innocents of the others side.
If someone shoots at you while hiding behind a woman and you cannot hide anywhere, but you have a gun. According to your statement above "I do not care if people intentionally target civilians or if they die as a result of collateral damage" - whether the person that is trying to murder you shoots or whether you shoot back to save your life is the same, yes? Do you realize how wrong your argument is?
ROFL So when there's evidence brought up to show Israel doing something wrong, your first impulse is to say to it's fake. Then you go post videos to support Israeli propaganda without even realizing where those videos are even taking place (ie - Syria). That's almost as bad as the IDF stating it was OK to target ambulances because Hamas has supposedly used them to prevent being fired upon when moving around. They then release a video that is nearly 4 years old and had already been proven to not be Hamas. Israel gives warnings to evacuate before they bomb a place. If the civilians do not leave, does still give Israel a green light to bomb that place? No. In fact, this wanton destruction of civilian infrastructure does not give Israel any direct military advantage and it does not hinder Hamas' capabilities to operate. But it's Muslims who are dying, so that's all OK to you.
Ignore what? the UN already found rockets being stored at hospitals. Twice. That's the very definition of using human shields. Do you believe the UN is lying or that they are confused by what they saw?
That alone - which you admit - already shows the difference in morals between Hamas, who indiscriminately fire rockets at civilians, and Israel, which is merely trying to protect its civilians.
If that person who is shooting at me is a blind person than it is more of a accurate comparisment (since the attacks by hamas result in less casualties than the retaliation of Israel). To me a casualty is a casualty, so in this case wether Israel didn't want to kill all those innocent civilians or not doesn't matter to me, because good intentions do not make them less dead (or their children less of an orphan). I do not have a good solution to this problem, but I do know that how Israel (and Hamas) are handling it now is a terrible way.
The "but Hamas is not as bad because they kill fewer people" argument is so incredibly misguided. The only reason they cannot kill more people is because they don't have the weapons to do so. And why don't they have the weapons to do so? Because Israel HAS TO prevent them from getting those weapons. The only way to do that is to control access. But for that, Israel gets blamed for a "siege". If they don't control access, Hamas has better weapons and they will kill A LOT more people. So you would be "handling it in a terrible way" if someone is trying to murder you, while hiding behind a woman, and you shoot back?
Of course intentions matter when it comes to taking lives. Who do we toss in prison longer, someone who commits attempted murder or someone who commits manslaughter?
I never said Hamas is not as bad. I am arguing both sides are just as bad. Do you think the child of that woman cares why I killed her mother? She has to grow up without a mother. But this example oversimplifies the situation .
Yes, and that argument is very, very stupid, sorry. If you don't understand it from the examples I gave you, it's a shame. Once again: - One side INDISCRIMINATELY fired thousands of rockets at civilians, with the intent to kill. - The other side gives warnings and tries to limit civilian casualties as much as possible. - The side that indiscriminately fired rockets at civilians on the other side has publicly stated that it wants its own civilians to die as "martyrs", and forces them into this position. HOW IS THAT JUST AS BAD? Yes, but you were forced to make a decision - save your life or take out the attacker, at the risk of killing an innocent person. It's a terrible choice to make, but the blame for you having to make that choice lies 100 % with the attacker. The outcome is terrible, but again, you were put in the situation. Someone is trying to kill you. You have no other choice but to react, unless you want to tell me that you would rather die. I challenge you to go to Israel and experience what is going on yourself. Talk to people on both sides, when you have the opportunity. Maybe it will open your eyes.
