Is Russell Westbrook already the best PG in the League?

I agree with you that Chris Paul is an all-time great, even if he hasn't led his team to the Finals yet. To put him ahead of Magic Johnson is tough, mainly because of the huge gap in accomplishments. Magic was such a unique player too. Yeah, he had no chance to guard a player like Chris Paul, but he presented so many challenges for a defense. No one ran the break like him, and he became an extremely potent post up player in the latter stages of his career. I think his abilities probably translated better to winning playoff games compared to Chris Paul's.

 

Magic Johnson himself would is humble enough to the league is more athletic. But its not like Magic's era was nothing but short, stumpy slow Scott Machados either.

(Lol @ Morey's "Olajuwon" choice. He knew he'd get bashed hard if he DIDNT say Hakeem)

Really its mostly because the NBA RULES are more shifted to a guard-oriented league for TV viewing, not because of ingenunity in offensive schemes. And yes guards dominate the ball more, so are more adept and moving around. Its why tall players arent just big bruisers in the paint, all the 3 seconds rules and zone defenses and fronting defenses can take post play out the game.

It depends on your definition of "efficiency". If Yao Ming was shooting 37% from the field like Rafter Alston, he'da been traded for a bag of balls after his 2nd year. When you include true shooting and effective field goal %, its a mix of all positions really. If you mean who has more body control to score in a VARIETY of ways, yes guards can do that.

I looked at scoring lists for 2013 now, and 1983 to see the number of bigs in the top 20

2013: 5
1983: 5

About the same, its a bunch of guards and wings scoring. Really bigs have always been stiffs except for a handful that break the mold, even when rules favored bigs.

 

CP3 is best point guard of all-time stats wise, he is too efficient, too good and has no weakness. He is 5th best PG in NBA history after Magic, Oscar, Isiah and Payton.

Westbrook is second best PG after last year's finals.

 

y u don't like Stockton?

 

I'm sure Morey values CP3 as the greatest and he has rights to, I wont argue that. Though there can be a slight difference in who the best is all time, and who you'd take on a team.

Magic's last 3.5 years when whe decided to become a 3 point shooter, he shot an average of 35.8%. Chris Pauls' career 3pt percentage is 36%. If HIV didnt cut Magic's career short past age 31, he'da certainly been able to be the same if not better.

The 3 point shot was just under-emphasized then until the late 80's. In 1983, the #20 ranked player in total 3pt makes had 14 threes for the season! Patrick Patterson has 6 threes now, Deaquan Cook on the Rockets has 5 threes now and I don't even remember him playing this year

In Magic's comeback at age 36 chubby and old against the better athletes of the mid 90s, he had a 21 PER.
Westbrook's PER right now, 21.

 

I would put Stockton and maybe Kidd over Payton, just my opinion.

 

really? i think of the opposite , in fact Chris Paul will be the one who struggle more in guarding Magic , Magic can post up against him all day long.

 

This. Anyway we don't know what goes in Morey's head, perhaps as a Celtics homer he just doesn't like Lakers people. I mean, using AMA answers as a basis is pretty crazy, Morey is a person like the rest of us and with a theoretical question with absolutely no impact on the Rox he's entitled to his own opinion.

IMHO though there's no question I'd take Magic, the height advantage is just too great, and being able to post up anywhere is too much of an edge.

Magic
Lebron
KG
Rodman
Hakeem

^Best defensive and offensive team of all time. Magic, Lebron and KG can guard positions 1-5, Rodman and Hakeem are two of the best defensive big men ever. Nobody would be able to score LOL. Plus, KG and Rodman would out freak the other team.

 

Your team has no outside shooting. Without picking any player you took, I can form a better team:

Oscar
Jordan
Durant
Duncan
Kareem

You may have better defensive team, but it would be hard time defending three best scorers in NBA history at the same time.

BTW Why Morey thinks Chris Paul is best PG ever:

 

All i know is tight game, 5 min on clock left in 4Q, I'd take half a dozen of PGs ahead oh him, even if he's already exploded for 40 points that game.

Having said that, WB is unstoppable by anyone other than himself. But he does it often enough.

 

Actually what this tells me more than anything is that Stockton was and is underrated.

 

The rules as they are today allow for a Chris Paul to exist. Fouls are whistled any time he draws any contact on his way to the rim, even if it doesn't impede his momentum. At the end of games he gets halo rule.

To me, you could probably divide the NBA into two eras, the pre-hand check era and the post-hand check era. Big men would also be divided in this manner, because it's close enough to the time when Hack-a-Shaq entered the league. Basically, Jordan made the game for guards, and Shaq took it away from big men. Jordan made it impossible to defend the little guy, and Shaq made it impossible to commit a foul on the big guy.

I contend that a guy like Isaiah would have had similar if not better numbers than Chris Paul of today. The question is easy to answer, because you have to compare each player to their era. How many guys approached Isaiah, versus how many are approaching Paul today? Isaiah's era had Magic, Stockton, KJ, and a little later Payton and Mark Jackson.

Paul in my mind has many mediocre PG's approaching what he does offensively, and even more "great" PG's surpassing him in important components of the game. For about five years, Nash was a better pure offensive PG, with better vision, a better shot, and better leadership in terms of getting wins out of his team. Deron Williams is tougher on both sides of the court. Tony Parker, Russell Westbrook, and Derrick Rose are much more deadly slashing to the hoop. Rondo in my mind plays better defense, and if his steal stats don't match up it's because Paul's stats are elevated in the same way as a George Karl-run team's would be: he plays ONLY passing lanes, and when it comes to on-ball D he is lacking. Then you get to the mediocre PG's that the hand-checking era has made look REALLY good at times: how do you think Aaron Brooks would have done in a league that allowed him to get beat up the way Isaiah was beat up?

Paul is the best in a league that rewards the little guy more than ever before. And you know what? He STILL can't get to a Western conference championship. Isaiah was like Deron Williams or Rajon Rondo, or even Steve Nash. He got knocked in the mouth a ton and kept getting back up. Chris Paul on the other hand is the opposite. HE is the one cheapshotting fools. Tripping people, punching them in the junk like some immature kid with an inferiority-complex. For that reason alone, I'll never get behind him as an all-timer.

 

you forgot the flopping things as well :grin: one of the reason i stop watching basketball a while ago, it's so hard to root for the players nowadays,almost every one of them flop and cry like a little girl when opponents try to defend them.

 

Lebron and Johnson has shot over 30% from 3 for most of their career, James in fact shot over 40% last year. They aren't dedicated shooters, but then again for this team I'd expect they'd defend and then score in transition.

Putting Durant in an "all time greats" is pretty premature IMHO, he's just gonna get abused on D because his body isn't fully developed yet. Unfortunately I havent' seen the Big O play, but it seems ridiculous someone would average a triple d over a season. Either he's the most dominant player alive, or (more likely) he played against white dudes like Chamberlain. I think Kareem is the actual GOAT, simply because he's a c competent on both ends and the sky hook is unguardable, dude was still one of the best at 40+ lol. Still I'm a rox fan so Hakeem it is.

 

Stockton is underrated on this board because of the hatred toward the Jazz. He has to be up there among top 5 PGs all time. The guy has no weakness on offense except for his height. And he was very good on defense albeit dirty.

 

i don't get to see to many nba games but westbrook imho has jordanlike potential....one of my favorite nba players...

 

your list sucks so bad I'm sure you don't watch much basketball. Parker isn't the 3rd best PG in the league. Rondo isn't the 8th best PG in the league. And Rose has been surpassed b/c he hasn't played at an all-nba level for more than a year now. It's about current production when you rank these guys year in and year out.

How about John Stockton or Oscar Robertson or even Gary Payton? CP3 hasn't done enough in terms of team accomplishments to go up against some of the greatest PGs ever.

Just b/c one man (Morey) thinks so doesn't mean he's right. That's his opinion. If CP3 can't lead THIS Clippers team to at least the WCF (they're STACKED), how
good is he? However, I do agree right now he is the best PG in the league.

But with the game now it is today, you don't really need a "great" PG to win. The players today are so versatile that playmaking duties aren't restricted solely to the PG.

I know Stockton is hated among Rockets fans, but he is in the top 5 EASILY.

The top 5 PGs of all time for me are: Magic, Oscar, Stockton, Isiah, Frazier. And you still have guys like Cousy/Payton...

Those guys were all-time greats AND they won. CP3 has to win (a great PG is always the leader of the team).

 

I watch A LOT of basketball, and my list emphasis traits I find important in PGs (namely bball IQ, scoring ability, and shooting ability). I don't value passing from a pg as much as others. For DRose, I'm pretty much assuming he was at the level he was at in the past when healthy.

 

And yet you never mentioned John Stockton in your argument when you originally brought up the greatest PG talk. Stockton was a great shooter, passer, and defender. He was like a prime Steve Nash WITH defense.

For your current criteria, it's funny b/c you have Rubio in there (who can't shoot or score) over guys like Liliard, Dragic, Mike conley... (who can shoot and score along with defense).

Ultimately, for you to have Rondo below Lowry is blasphemous. That's completely absurd. Nobody else in this world would have Rondo as the 8th best PG in the league. Nobody.

 

PG ?