Won Super Bowl in 1981 and 1984 without Rice. In fact, the 49ers were littered with pro-bowlers at every position in the early Super Bowl runs. I see where you argument is Apps, and for the most part I agree with you. I'm going to briefly bring up a few different arguments to support your point. I notice on this board (and even few other places), that crown Hakeem Olajuwon as the best center of all time. Even though, most people gravitate towards Russell or Kareem, because of the championships they won. Even in my own opinion, I think Hakeem Olajuwon or Wilt Chamberlain were arguably the two best centers ever. Though, there are people out there, who argue that there's no way Olajuwon can be greater than say Kareem, Russell, Duncan, or even Shaq. Because, he won less games and less rings. He only won two rings. Basketball, like football is still a team/organization sports, one individual can't do it by themselves. I choose Olajuwon and Chamberlain, because there were the most talented and dominant centers of all time, bar none, and statistically speaking. If you combine all of the skills --- scoring, shootiing, free throws, rebounding, defense, passing, BB IQ, and who could carry their team further on individual talent. In that same sense when it comes to quarterbacks, I could build stronger case for Manning vs. alot of modern QBs. Those attributes that you pointed out, Manning trumps Brady across the board.
Montana #1 . . Then Other Folx Manning . . . naaa. . . . If it is the 4th Quarter in the playoffs. . . you need a 1st down to ICE the game . . .. Manning won't get it If it is the 4th Quarter in the playoffs. . . you need a 20 yards to get in field goal range . . .. Manning won't get it Great Quaterback but no where near the best Too many situational fails Rocket River
If I was in a Space Jam situation and needed a QB for my team to win me one game, I'd pick Peyton Manning. If I was allowed to create an NFL team from scratch in 1998, I'd go with Tom Brady.
Really? That's surprising, given his record in playoff games, which a Space Jam-like game would most certainly qualify as. I'd take Brady and Rodgers, in a one-game playoff. Montana, too. Then Manning. But, man... in his prime: Manning was incredible. Relentless. I'm still wondering how any team ever stopped that offense.
Marvin Harrison is not Jerry Rice, but Montana also had success without Rice. I will say if Joe Montana had an advantage, it was Bill Walsh. Manning's postseason resume is why he isn't #1. His numbers aren't bad in the postseason, he just can't compete with the record of Brady & Montana. To a degree it unfair to judge QBs on SB wins (Peyton actually played terrible on his way to the one they won), but players are judged based on it. He is unquestionably a top 3 QB of all-time by any rational measure.
Those taking Brady in these "1-game takes all scenarios" really are presuming he's coming with Belicheck. That's the one potential *knock* on Brady... the fact that he's had the greatest modern-day coach of all-time with him every step of the way (with defenses that had a huge, if not the biggest, role in the SB wins), and in the one year Brady went out, Belicheck still led them to a 11-5 record. Even Montana had continued regular season/playoff success without Walsh. I agree that Rodgers, pound-for-pound, is as great as all of these guys... even if he only ends up with playing/winning 1 super bowl.
its all subjective, a large portion of a QB's success is based on things outside his control. i would take manning in his prime over brady in his, though its a very close call, all things equal.
Throwing numbers out there using Montana as the litmus test. Playoff numbers (including SB): Montana TD/INT ratio: 2.14 Montana QB rating: 95.6 Montana completion %: 62.7% 4th Quarter comebacks: 5 Game Winning Drives: 5 Brady TD/INT ratio: 2.00 Brady QB rating: 88 Brady Completion%: 62.4% 4th Quarter comebacks: 6 Game Winning Drives: 9 Manning TD/INT ratio: 1.67 Manning QB rating: 88.1 Manning Completion %: 63.3% 4th Quarter comebacks: 1 Game Winning Drives: 1
Debate isn't simply who is the greatest playoff QB of all time. As has been said before, Manning's regular season numbers trumps all... and his playoff numbers, while not the best ever, certainly don't disqualify him from being in discussion for one of the best QB's ever. In the end, his playoff failures do keep him from being the clear-cut Michael Jordan of football greatest-ever... but he's on the Rushmore.
The NFL QB Mount Rushmore is Unitas Montana Elway Manning The next level just under that of elite QBs is Brees, Farve, Young, Marino, Kelly, Staubach, Brady
While Belicheck is undeniably the best coach, certainly of his era, schemes still need to be executed - and few are executed with the incredible consistency/precision that Brady routinely displays. Not to mention... I mean, when the chips are down, that guy is just nails. The 4th and 10 throw yesterday... Credit for the call and to Gronkowski (who made an incredible catch) - but with the season literally on the line, that was about as perfect a pass as humanly possible. Also... small sample size and all - but Belicheck certainly didn't resurrect Drew Bledsoe's career (5-13 record; 77.1 rating). That dynasty didn't start until Tom Brady became QB. ETA: And stop pretending Manning was drafted, and spent his career under Jerry Glanville. Tony Dungy and Tom Moore are incredibly respected coaches.
Sure... but he likely has 2 less Super Bowls if Belicheck doesn't devise the perfect gameplan to stop the greatest show on turf, and his defense doesn't get ultra-prepared to look for that Seattle quick slant. Again, he's right up there... but having Belicheck every step of the way is a part of it, and can't be separated till he does it by himself. But he did get Matt Cassel to an 11-5 record... and he was the defensive coordinator/assistant head coach in the year that Bledsoe led them to a super bowl. He actually started under Jim Mora, and has now had the additional luxury of being under such historically regarded masterminds in Jim Caldwell and Gary Kubiak. I don't believe any QB going to a SB with 4 different head coaches is meaningless, just like I don't believe Brady has the exact same results/opportunity without Belicheck (who, btw was winning SB's and shutting down elite offenses before Brady).
IMHO, Peyton is THE GOAT QB. Why, because I think of all of the great QBs, he had the worst teams and coaches relatively speaking. He also did things I've never seen any player do before. He literally became the standard for a QB that is the coach on the field. No one else has even come close to running the offense the way he did and I don't think we'll see that again anytime soon.
Well, I didn't mention Super Bowls - but since you did... This is patently absurd but... well, you knew I'd bite, didn’t you? Damn you, Nick!... Stop? Warner threw for nearly 400 yards (setting a Super Bowl record) and scored the tying TD with 1:30 remaining. They *slowed* that offense down, scoring-wise - but it still required Brady to go 5/6 and drive the team 53 yards with no timeouts to win it. The Patriots trailed 24-14 entering the 4Q last year; their win probability was 4%. Brady promptly went 13/15 for 124 and 2 TDs against the best defense in football. The Patriots have given up 91 points in four Super Bowls – 23/game. They weren’t winning all those rings because of their defense. In fact, you could argue (much easier, frankly) that they'd have two *more* rings if Mr All-Time Defense could have stopped late drives by Eli Manning. So any notion that Brady wasn't an intricate part of their Super Bowl victories is just silly nonsense. You do realize... Belichick has never done it, as a head coach, without Brady, right? In fact, Belichick with Brady as his starting QB: 171-51; four rings; six SB appearances. Belichick without Brady as his starting QB: 52-62; zero rings; zero SB appearances (and yes, that includes the year the team went 11-5 without Brady). The later is irrelevant. I'll see the former and raise you the above + the Patriots were 5-13 in Belichick's first 18 games prior to Brady's first start. And subsequently 86-24 before 2008 – which, I’m just sayin’, was a better winning % (78) than the year they played without Brady (73% - and that was with a team Brady went undefeated with the year prior; technically a -5-game swing) Well, since you're giving Belichick credit for rings he won as an assistant (coaching defense, no less), Kubiak actually has more (3 to 2) and Caldwell has just as many – both coaching offense. And, FYI, Manning spent more years with Tony Dungy (8) than Caldwell, Fox and Kubiak combined. (And that's giving Caldwell credit for 2011, when Manning didn't take a snap) Guess what? Dungy has a higher career winning % (.668) than Belichick (.664). And unlike Belichick, Dungy actually has a winning % (.563) without a HoF QB. But, sure - let's continue to mention Caldwell and Fox and Kubiak and pretend Manning didn't play for an all-time great coach.
