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Info re the debate of who was behind the Battier/Gay trade

Discussion in 'Houston Rockets: Game Action & Roster Moves' started by rocketjunkie, Aug 30, 2008.

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  1. rocketjunkie

    rocketjunkie Member

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    Hi I'm a newbie and am usually just am happy just reading the various threads. However, I did want to pass along some interesting information I learned the other day which I hadn't picked up in prior threads (if it's been covered, my apologies and please lock up). I also tried finding the right thread to put this post in but failed miserably, so sorry if this is (i) redundant/previously covered or (ii) in the wrong thread.

    In any case, I was at a social event about a week ago and ran into someone who is (or was) an extremely highly placed individual with the Rockets organization. I understand that a lot of people will be skeptical because I am not using names, so take this for what it's worth (it's not earthshattering - just interesting). Out of curiosity, I asked the insider whether the Battier trade was more a Dawson or a Morey move (since the Battier trade went down in Dawson's last year when Morey was doing his "GM apprenticeship"). The insider did not answer directly, but gave it away with his response -- he said that the trade was a moneyball move (i.e., Morey). He said that the owner did need a little bit of convincing because they were giving up a very good prospect, but that it was a move that the Rockets FO thought would be good for both teams. For you Rudy Gay fans, he also mentioned that Rudy developed a little faster than the Rockets had anticipated, and that had they forecasted that rate of development, it would have made them (or at least the owner) more hesitant to do the trade (although he seemed to suggest they might still have done it). However, they are happy with Shane. He also said that Morey and his group were brilliant, with the main point being that Morey doesn't usually overpay (whether through trades or for cash) for talent (e.g., not all moves pan out - SF3, Bonzi, etc. - but Morey generally has not committed very much money in those moves).

    I agree with him about Morey. If you just look at who was had surrounding Tracy and Yao two years ago (when we hardly had any depth) vs who is around him now (when you have posters arguing that some of our #13-15 guys arguably deserve floor time and when the bench would include Battier (or Artest), Landry (hopefully), Barry, Deke, Hayes, Brooks, Head and Dorsey (and Harris I guess), we just have a lot of depth. He added Scola and Artest for very little, and he drafted Landry and Brooks and this year traded a 25 pick for a 28 (where he got the player he wanted) + Dorsey. Even if SF3 didn't pan out, he is paid only $2M or so, and Mike James and Bonzi Wells were converted to Bobby Jackson who was used to get Ron Artest. And he did this while they were at the luxury threshold. I'm a Battier fan so I was ok with the Memphis trade (maybe they could have gotten a little more, but they weren't robbed). With Battier, Memphis was a solid playoff team. After Battier and Gay were trade, Memphis was a bottom feeder (Gasol was hurt for part of the season, but even after he came back their winning percentage was incredibly low).

    Anyway, just in case the debate about who was responsible for Battier hadn't been settled, I thought I'd add this information.
     
    #1 rocketjunkie, Aug 30, 2008
  2. Rover16

    Rover16 Member

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    Interesting info, but the rockets weren't going to even select rudy gay. They chose him for the grizzlies. Rockets were going to pick Thabo Sefolosha, so I don't get the insider saying if they knew gay would progress so fast they might not have made it. They should be talking about sefolosha.
     
    #2 Rover16, Aug 30, 2008
  3. agentkirb87

    agentkirb87 Member

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    I think Morey has more than made up for it with Scola and Artest.

    Its really arguable that we never would've gotten Artest if we had kept Gay and Swifts contract (Swifts contract making it really hard for us to sign a guy like Artest to a decent sized deal next season).
     
    #3 agentkirb87, Aug 30, 2008
  4. Easy

    Easy Boban Only Fan
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    I think Morey, in an article, did say that the Battier trade was a moneyball (analytics, in his terminology) move. So it is pretty clear that Gay-for-Battier has Morey's fingerprints on it.

    However, it is almost certain that CD was the one who did the actual negotiation. So the whole package was not all Morey's doing.
     
    #4 Easy, Aug 30, 2008
  5. ClutchCity3

    ClutchCity3 Member

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    awww....that's why you are a member ...

    anyway, nice read!
     
    #5 ClutchCity3, Aug 30, 2008
  6. mrfirefly7

    mrfirefly7 Member

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    Thanks for the info. It did clear a lot of things in my mind. Even though Rudy Gay may have more talent than Battier, I believe Battier is definitely a better fit to Rockets than Gay.
     
    #6 mrfirefly7, Aug 30, 2008
  7. agentkirb87

    agentkirb87 Member

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    If they had let Morey negotiate he would've somehow got Gasol thrown in the deal for a 2 week old twinkie.
     
    #7 agentkirb87, Aug 30, 2008
  8. BimaThug

    BimaThug Resident Capologist
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    Precisely. Jeff Van Gundy came on the radio in the days after the draft and actually said that the Rockets were going to take Sefalosha if the Battier trade fell through and the Rockets were keeping the pick.

    Also, most people on this BBS don't factor in that Memphis has been absolutely TERRIBLE the past two seasons. This abysmal level of competitiveness by the Grizzlies has afforded Rudy Gay the opportunity to play more and to play through more mistakes than he EVER would have been able to with the Rockets under JVG or under Adelman. The Rockets were and are a more competitive team that would not stand by while a rookie or second year player tried playing through so many mistakes. Your "insider" is probably right that the Rockets had a longer learning curve for Gay in their minds (whether they took him or not) because he would not have gotten as much PT on a contending team like Houston.
     
    #8 BimaThug, Aug 30, 2008
  9. hooroo

    hooroo Member

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    Rockets were going to explore options to trade down for Thabo, Brewer, etc. They weren't going to use the 8th pick on any of those players. So Gay may well have been the player they kept.
     
    #9 hooroo, Aug 30, 2008
  10. ty185

    ty185 Member

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    that's as nice of a first post as I could remember for a long time...

    congratulations for the promotion and thanks for the info! :)
     
    #10 ty185, Aug 30, 2008
  11. W22_STREAK

    W22_STREAK Member

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    We weren't exactly a contender back then were we...

    plus the spurs dont trade tim duncan away for dikembe mutombo...just because they are contending...
     
    #11 W22_STREAK, Aug 30, 2008
  12. W22_STREAK

    W22_STREAK Member

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    well whoever that draft pick may be means we were still going to keep a rookie who was expected to get play time...and rudy gay was and still is best of the bunch by far...

    so all this talk about not keeping gay just because he is a rookie is rubbish...
     
    #12 W22_STREAK, Aug 30, 2008
  13. agentkirb87

    agentkirb87 Member

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    They probably would've used the pick on Thabo if not for the trade. Didn't he get picked 9th or 10th by Chicago? And he's not a bad talent, just not the scoring talent Gay is.
     
    #13 agentkirb87, Aug 30, 2008
  14. W22_STREAK

    W22_STREAK Member

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    Not b****ing about the trade or anything...even though I'm still unhappy with how we traded away rudy for battier...just wanted to say a few points:

    the rockets did admit they made a mistake with rudy gay: they underestimated him and did not think he was going to be as good a player as he actually turned out to be...so thats a mistake by the rocket's own admission.

    they said they might not have done the trade had they known or correctly predicted how rudy turned out...so therefore further evidence that the rockets did indeed make a mistake.

    again, not complaining about the trade, just pointing out a few points. We haven't exactly got out of the first round either...
     
    #14 W22_STREAK, Aug 30, 2008
  15. heypartner

    heypartner Contributing Member

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    ok, fine. but if the Battier trade is "moneyball", then what is the Frederik Weiss trade? The "Spurs Way"...like trading for VSpan?
     
    #15 heypartner, Aug 30, 2008
  16. lastmanstanding

    lastmanstanding Member

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    ^^ Salary dump.
     
    #16 lastmanstanding, Aug 30, 2008
  17. heypartner

    heypartner Contributing Member

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    yeah, that's what the Spurs called it, too.
    how'd that work out for them.
    the Spurs Way !!!
     
    #17 heypartner, Aug 30, 2008
  18. Rover16

    Rover16 Member

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    Wait what...first off scola rocks and patrick ewing jr sucks! No way are they comparable. We just saved not paying ewing when we didn't even want him in the first place but were forced to take him by the kings.
     
    #18 Rover16, Aug 30, 2008
  19. agentkirb87

    agentkirb87 Member

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    I agree. I think its painfully obvious NOW that we would undo the trade. But at the time the trade wasn't that terrible. Gay was basically Tmac light and with JVG as the coach how fast would he have developed?

    I agree with the guy that compares this trade to the Scola trade. We basically got robbed (in hindsight at least), but there were still some good aspects from our end. Just like how the Spurs, while they gave Scola to us, were able to get under the lux tax by moving him.
     
    #19 agentkirb87, Aug 30, 2008
  20. W22_STREAK

    W22_STREAK Member

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    Yeah its pretty obvious, in fact more than obvious that we would have never done the trade had we known how good a player rudy has become right now. In fact he was putting up 10ppg in his rookie season which was similar to shane's ppg...and look at rudy now...

    I'm pretty sure lakers wouldn't trade bynum away for mark blount or something..."just because they are competing"...why did we even have steve novak then if your not even going to give time to rudy...

    by the way spurs was going to lose scola for nothing if they didnt trade him, as scola was going to sign a long term contract in europe if he couldnt come to the nba right away...

    rudy gay trade was to us like how the scola trade was to the spurs...only ten times worse...
     
    #20 W22_STREAK, Aug 30, 2008
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