Imagine if A country came and Killed a Million Americans

Contrary to what glynch thinks, I was actually not in favor of the Iraq war but doubted its legitimation, and there are posts to prove it.

But I have a problem with the leftist view of the world that any terror is only a reaction to something terrible the USA/Israel/the West did.

This is actually an extremely paternalistic, if not racist, view of the world which reduces Muslims and people in the Middle East to mere objects who can only react, instead of subjects who act out of intrinsic motivation.

Did the Iraq war and the transgressions in Abu Ghraib and such things contribute to more hate against the West and non-Muslims? Yes. Did hate against the West and non-Muslims, specifically Jews, already exist before that? Yes.

Can any current and future terror against the West and any hate and intolerance in the name of Islam be rationalized "because we/Bush/Israel started it"? No.

Do we still need to question and understand the motives of Islamists and political Islam, regardless of whether the West was at fault with the Iraq invasion? Yes.

Do we still have a right (and even a duty) to defend our values against Islamofascist intolerance? Absolutely.

 

You're talking about this hate as if it's some monolith. When teenage kids see their friends and family being shredded by US bombs, missiles, and soldiers as well as being imprisoned for suspicion, interrogated via torture, and treated in just incredibly inhumane ways there's a natural reaction to that and it's going to be a violent one. Islam existed before these events transpired, there were extremists before these events happened, and there wasn't anywhere near this level of violence towards the West. It's a linear event chronology. Decades of underhanded Israeli policy, decades of underhanded policy in the Middle East in general, 1991 invasion, 9/11, two more invasions, and here we are with ISIS and an incredibly violent era of violence towards the West. It's not a "leftist view of the world", it's history.

 

It isn't, fair enough. The world is always more complex than what you or I can describe in a post on a message board.

Israel has a right to defend itself. I understand you would love to see it wiped from the face of the earth. Hopefully that will not happen. And also, you just describe all these things as if they were a one-sided affair, and the Islamists who were imprisoned were just victims. They were imprisoned because they had already murdered or were about to. Your leftist world view doesn't allow you to see them as anything but victims. Guess what: The murderers of Charlie Hebdo's journalists weren't victims. They were perpetrators. In the name of Islam. And leftist appeasement enabled them. The (leftist) Charlie Hebdo journalists did not go along with that. Now we see Islamists, right-wing extremists and some other leftists openly or secretly rejoicing about these murders, and blaming the victims.

 

Pump those brakes harder....

Read what I wrote, not what you want me to read.


I am well aware of the USA and its history. Respectfully, I am most likely more aware of it than you are based on my education, travels and professional experience. Can you please tell me where I said that the USA did not partake in imperialism or colonialism?

What I said is that many Americans are not exposed to it. The USA is very insulated by geography and prosperity. Most of the consequences are in areas thousands of miles away. Knowing something in the abstract and living it are two very different things.

It is just in the ruling elite's interest? No, it is in the USA citizen's interest as well. People want cheap goods, people want to be able to have nice things and consume an amount of resources that would not be possible without exploiting other people.

Why is the USA so imperialistic? Because it is the most powerful nation in the world.... as when you look through history, you will note that nations with power exploit it..... not all equally, but exploitation is very common.

I did not say it is right, but it is reality and there is nothing shocking about it. If you want to fight to stop it, then I support you.... but know what the hell you are fighting.

 

BINGO!

While the left has made many wonderful contributions and are correct on many issues, the black and white view on some issues and paternalistic view on victimhood does not help the situation at all.

 

We got to go to war in the middle east to protect 'OUR' freedoms. The media gets attacked in France... They are attacking 'OUR' freedom of speech. Who's freedoms are they speaking about

They even forced 14 countries in Africa to pay a colonization tax up till last year after that and the rest of the world turned a blind eye to it.

 

If the US had no involvement at all with the middle east or with Europe _ conflicts would still be going on over there. That's an old world with old world beef.

 

it's always fascinating how we always meddle in the countries that can barely defend themselves. chinese comrades, glorious ussr and we, the american government are all quick to arm these countries to push political agendas but never truly help the countries with the real terrorism, poverty. eventually, the bullied will strike back.
the hatred for anything other than their religion has been brewing forever.


may be it's China's turn to get up all on the Iraq.

 

That's a pathetic talking point that the Israelis use to legitimize murder and destruction. Israel doesn't have the right to steal land and claim they have a right to defend their occupation through murder, assassination, embargo, as well as bombing and invading neighbors.

This is the same kind of tripe that gets rolled out during every unpopular war. The lack of support for stupid policy enables the enemy to kill us. Whatever.

Charlie Hebdo cartoonists are dead because ISIS ordered their deaths. ISIS exists because of the Iraq war. These dumbasses went to train with AQAP because of the war. Notice how the war is prominent in this theme? The war "enabled" these events, the war is the triggering event here... not the "leftists" that opposed the war.

You're so caught up in your whole leftist, Islamist, yadda yadda that you've completely ignored the snowball of consequences from one event to another. Don't believe your lying eyes, just repeat leftist and Islamist a few more times and surely that will win the day.

 

It was actually Al Qaeda in Yemen. Al Qaeda has existed in Yemen since 1998, but don't let facts get in your way.

Al Qaeda in Yemen doesn't.

The war might be one of many excuses to try and rationalize these murders, but the underlying cause is the fascist ideology of political Islam. They are motivated by their interpretation of Islam.

You are so caught up in blaming everything on Israel and the USA that you ignore the fact that the core of their motivation - as they themselves state it - is their belief in (political) Islam. Don't believe your lying eyes, just repeat Israel and George W. Bush and Iraq war a few more times and surely you will still be ignorant.

 

My apologies if I misunderstood your position, but, if you are aware of the actions of the U.S., and opposed to the atrocities committed, then how can you say that the U.S. "is a boy scout" compared to other countries -- we are in the dirt with all the other world powers from the past and present.

You really seem to minimize the abuses of the U.S. and to romanticize the American population as being more ethical than our history has demonstrated. You say our population is against colonialism when presented with it, but we always reelect those people who perpetuate that colonialism and who prop up abusive regimens.

I also have to disagree with the bold part. Certainly the American population has benefited from our repression of other peoples overseas, but I am not certain it is a net benefit -- and it pales in comparison to the benefits that the corporations that have pushed us toward war (From United Fruit to Halliburton) have reaped.

For example, the U.S. uses its military to suppress dissent and install repressive tyrannical regimens in overseas countries. Then, with Unions and dissident groups weakened by our military, wages are driven down to where corporations find it profitable to move jobs overseas. So, the net result is that corporations use the U.S. military to open up markets, resources and to decrease labor cost, it costs the corporations little since taxpayers pay for the army, and then american jobs are sent overseas.

So, like I said "though of course it is not the "country's" interest, but just that of the ruling elite who profit from such endeavors (gaining the profits of the military actions, while the tax payers pay the war expenses"

 

Americans rarely want to hear about the things the government is doing . .'on their behalf'

Rocket River

 

Moderate Muslim Philosophy 101:

It's the West's fault. They are reaping what they sow. I've made a good living in the West with their civilized laws and freedoms so I'll keep my mouth shut but it's their OWN fault a new person or organization attacks them every week in the ISLAM. So what if we couldn't govern ourselves and committed unspeakable atrocities against OUR OWN? I'd rather suffer at the hands of my own incompetence than the West. *smirk*

And that is why, fellas, we can't just screen for extremists. No one is born with that much hate and misunderstanding-- an ideologly slowly corrupts them.

It's also a great thing we're distancing ourselves from M.E. oil dependence and drilling for new reserves in the civilized world. They clearly cannot integrate and it's not up to us to BABY them.

 

Then why did we insert new regimes and dictators into areas of the world that have since become some of the most unstable regions of the world? Is that islams fault? Poverty, despair, and lack of education will corrupt any ideology, for it isn't the ideology that is at fault, but rather human nature.

 

Stupid American 101

They hate us for our freedumb. The fact that we have installed and propped up dictators for decades and invaded the region multiple times is just Islamist propaganda.

 

how do we know it's not the other way around, Islam seems to have control over many aspects of people's lives there.

 

There's a reason for the Arab world hating us. We (Americans) aren't forced to agree with our foreign policy.

 

Capitalism . . . Countries like the uae sure haven't gone all islam once the money started coming in and benefitting them. Saudi obviously couldn't handle it and will be steadily isolated as a result. All the 72 virgin and jihad talk goes out the window once the common men get a little money. And for that, they'd be worse off without international trade.