Illegal immigrant runs for student body president at Texas A&M

I guess I coming off bit like that guy

Rocket River

 

Are you an illegal immigrant?

 

Well . . . in the same sense that Superman is . . . . *grin*



Rocket River

 

Read my explanation for how people get into removal proceedings. I'll post it again for your convenience.

Since he is not coming up in any of these channels he is not being deported.

Our immigration system is already hierarchical, so you must be doing a lot of pausing. Any policy decision of how to treat different groups differently is usually hierarchical based on our goals. For example, in our current regime, we give unlimited visas to children and spouses of United States Citizens. We do not however give unlimited visas to children of US citizens who are (a) already married or (b) over the age of 21. To add to that, we also give avenues to citizenship for those people who have suffered harm, will suffer harm, or whose departure would cause harm to USC dependents. I speak of those mechanisms in rough terms, but they are an example of the US creating a hierarchy in how it treats what are unlike people in unlike circumstances unlike.

Sure if you have a warrant. People are stopped and put into removal proceedings under secured communities with no warrants in their name because they have a broken tail-light, the cop asks them if they are a US citizen, they either lie (illegal and a false claim to US citizenship is a big deal in the Immigration context), or they tell the truth and the cop takes them in or they stay silent and they get taken in. So, in many larger cities in TX cops simply don't ask status worrying about profiling. All of this is about the same effort as taking in anyone else.

Yes, you are. How is this guy flaunting illegality? Sure, simply being in the US without papers violates the law. This is one of those "what part of illegal don't you understand" statements. It adds nothing to any conversation. It would be like me saying to someone who admitted to going over the speed limit, "what part of illegal don't you understand," I'd get laughed at or I would at least come off as very annoying individual. This is malum prohbitum, not malum in se, it's a law that has no real ethical underpinnings. On top of that, the guy is being punished for being illegal every day of his life, he has to worry about driving, he has to limit his freedom, and he likely will not be able to get the job he has studied 5 years for.

Not really, though not paying your traffic tickets is an easy route to increasing your chances of getting deported, since if you are pulled over they will take you in and then you'll get put in the system. They don't even need to ask your status. I'll give you a better example to illustrate our priorities at work: Guy who beats his wife with shoplifting priors is a priority or kid who managed to get into college despite not learning English till 14, who has lived here for most the last 12 years of his life and who has a perfectly clean record. Both are here illegally, so should we treat them the same? Should both get the ultimate penalty of deportation? I don't think so.

 

Thank you for the deailed explanation. Obviously, you are a counselor in immigration law and a lot more than I do. One thing I dont want to add is that the due process hearings can be waived if one doesnt wish to be put in a dentention center for over a yeae. But sure, deportation costs money. OTOH, one may also argue that the maginal cost of each balatant case like this kid's isnt all that much considering the whole system is already in place.

Also, based on your explanation, looks like there is marked significant departure in terms of deportation of undocumented aliens from 10 To 15 years. Remember,The removal of Elian Gonzalez. It seemed the tolerance for undocumented person was much lower. I guess I am concerned that the great tolerance of today could be cut back later when other agendas take priority.

 

This is the one that stands out. why does he need to be reported. It is obviously a well known fact.
Not committing any crimes. . . being here illegally [or is undocumented something different than illegally? Cause so far it just seems a softer way of saying here illegally]

I do pause alot. When this country was turning over boats of Haitians to send them back . . . I paused alot.

My point is . . .THIS GUY . . . is a KNOWN UNDOCUMENTED person
This is like me sitting on stage saying . . . I am high on cocaine right this moment and got some in my pocket.
IMO such an admission should warrent an investigation and an arrest if I am indeed doing something illegal

You don't think sitting on a stage in front of a bunch of folx saying. . . I AM UNDOCUMENTED . . . .is flaunting.
Punished for being illegal everyday of his life?
*chuckle* ok . . .

THIS GUY . . this one guy . . if TAMU Cops pick him up and go
OH . . . YOU THE UNDOCUMENTED GUY . . . why can they not arrest him?
since he is a well known undocumented person?

again .. . it is an opportunity arrest. . .

Rocket River

 

Undocumented is the preferred word usage, because it is thought to be less demeaning by most advocates of immigration reform. It is somewhat akin to the use of African-american or black over the n-word. But I'm not here to convince you which word choice is right.

I wasn't aware you were such a bleeding heart, given that sending Hatians back, it would seem that deporting this guy would give you pause as well. Seemingly no, though.

No it isn't. It's more like my example of traffic violations. I will got on the record right now. I have broken traffic laws in my lifetime and I will likely break them in the future. Do I warrant an investigation? Most people would say no. How about someone who has smoked pot and says they will likely continue smoking pot. Do they warrant an investigation right now? Maybe less people would say no, but probably the majority would think the police had better things to do. How about someone who admits to being a murderer and says they will murder again. Do they? Almost everyone would say yes investigate that guy. Why is that? It's because not all crimes are equal. Being in the country illegally falls more on the traffic ticket side of the spectrum and not on the murder side of the spectrum because he is not harming anyone or substantially more likely to hurt someone due to his status. In fact, given his participation and excellence in achievement he is likely helping people around him.

Flaunting has a negative connotation. He would be flaunting the law if he were saying I am illegal, but screw it I don't care, and oh, screw the government of the US. I don't even really care how you characterize his actions, because I don't believe that even if he is flaunting by your definition that is a reason to deport him.

If you want to say something is not punishment when someone is not afforded all the rights and privileges of another, then what the hell does punishment mean? Even if it isn't punishment in the strictest sense, how does it not at least merit a strong comparison to punishment. We punish criminals by making it hard for them to get jobs, and we impose on their liberty. He's in the same boat, he can't get a job and he has to constantly watch his actions. In what substantive ways does his situation as an illegal differ?

Because the police at TAMU are exercising their discretion choose not to pick him up since he is not breaking the laws they care about. Police chiefs across the nation think that by picking up otherwise law-abiding undocumented illegal immigrants it has a chilling effect on the reporting of crime. They think that cooperation with the 10 million strong illegal population has a stronger effect on completing their mission of keeping us safe. I'm willing to defer to their expertise, but maybe you know better.

 

The typical black experience in this country for the last 400+ years. That is what I call it.

Criminals are punished for their illegal activities by sending them to prison
He is not.
You basically saying his punishment is . . . he has to act like an uncaught criminal. He has to act like the guys DOG THE HUNTER is chasing down . . . lest he be caught.

The unfair unequal enforcement of the law is an issue for me
considering that some folx get the benefit of the doubt
others get shot 41 times while unarmed.

Sorry but when it comes to unequal treatment from the law . . . .
being on the wrong side of it for a very long time . .. makes me just a bit sensative.

perhaps you are right. Maybe all the groups who have had this treatment
should employ the quiet threat that undocumented folx are using.
that will make the country better

Rocket River

 

No, what I am saying he needs to actually do something bad before he will get deported. Being deported is a terrible consequence. For undocumented people who have lived here for half their life, it's even worse. Just like we shouldn't be locking up a kid for life for stealing a stick of gum, we shouldn't be deporting this kid simply for being here illegally. You also wouldn't call the kid who stole a stick of gum a criminal, just like you shouldn't call this kid a criminal.

If you mean that black people are getting shot by the police while people like this kid get leniency, then I half agree with you. It's a messed up world we live in where police will be way more likely to shoot someone on account of their skin color, but the bigotry toward African-americans is not caused by this kid or other undocumented immigrants, and undocumented people certainly are not staffing police forces. In fact, I'd say that the bigotry toward both groups has similar causes.

I understand as much as I can. Once America gets the point where it can treat people not as "illegals," but as humans, we will be at a time and place where America will be a better for all minorities.

 

Use whatever word you want, I'm not going to argue about language. Yes you are right he is here illegally. I wasn't disputing the reality. Sure he took the illegal route. He was 14 or so when he crossed.

I'll just re-urge my earlier argument:

I'll engage in a small hypothetical here. If the penalty for stealing a stick of gum in this country was life imprisonment, should the individual pay that penalty? Most people would say no, that's sheer lunacy. Presuming we didn't charge the guy with something else, would you feel any different if the guy murdered someone while stealing the gum? Probably. I think we can agree that not all crimes are the same and not all penalties are commensurate to the crime.

No we should be able to deport people. National sovereignty demands that a country be able to police its own borders. However, just because the national government has the power to deport or any other power doesn't mean that it should exercise the power in all circumstances. With the lessons of the above hypothetical in mind, our national government chooses not to deport those who it feels are not a danger to our society unless they come to the attention of ICE through either one of the 3 processes in mentioned earlier:

Even if they come to the attention of the government ICE might choose either not to place a detainer on the individual or if they have already placed the guy into removal proceedings by issuing a Notice to Appear it is possible that ICE might cancel removal proceedings based on the guidelines given in the recent Morton Memo on Prosecutorial Discretion. This memo is all discretionary and non-binding. In the end, it's a executive branch agency and it can choose to exercise its mandate as it sees fit under a Chevron deference standard.

There are a couple goals of policing our borders. Security is the main one by far, another is keeping undesirables out. Security as a goal is not served by deporting this kid or others in his position with no criminal history, strong ties, and in college. Neither would his deportation further the goal of keeping undesirables out, because AFAIK he is not diseased and not likely to become a ward of the state. Another thing to keep in mind is that Republicans, by trying to starve the beast by aggressively lowering taxes for the past couple of decades have limited the resources available to many federal agencies. ICE and DHS have not escaped unscathed. Despite technological advances, ICE and DHS are confronted by more immigration violations than they can address given their budget, and are forced to prioritize. I for one am glad that we choose to deport criminal aliens over high achieving non-criminal aliens, but if you can make an argument as to why we should deport non-criminal aliens over criminal aliens I'd like to hear it.

Sure those are facts, but as I pointed out, that doesn't really matter in how ICE will treat him - they have their priorities and he's not one of them at the moment. I'm not saying that he won't pay the penalty if ICE picks him up, but I'm saying they likely won't and if they did they should realize their priorities and unless they pick him up for committing some serious crime shouldn't deport him.

The point of having a legal process is to provide channels by which people can get visas, work authorizations, green cards, and citizenship. This kid receives none of these and as I expressed earlier in the thread is likely to be ineligible for any status unless circumstances change.

So, how does his undocumentedness piss on the folks who try to do things the legal way? Those that came here legally got their due. He's not getting any Immigration benefits by being undocumented; if anything, his life is harder for being undocumented in the US (though probably not as hard as growing up on the streets in El Salvador). The guy's not even working, he is in school. The very concept that the that people who are here illegally somehow cheapen those who are here legally is absurd in this context. Is there some other way I'm missing? Does it cheapen the efforts of some dude who is here legally on a tourist visa? How about the woman who came on a family based petition and is now a citizen? How about the bearded-gentleman from Dubai who came to the US on a E-2 visa by demonstrating that he would be investing over $50,000 dollars in the US? If so, how?

To give another example: people speeding on the highway. I mean I guess you feel sort of cheapened by people who speed when you yourself abide by traffic laws. However the effect is negligible and you are cheapened is not very persuasive, obeying the law should also be theoretically its own reward. But even presuming it isn't, I think that any negative feelings will offset by the thought that these people are eventually going to be getting a ticket. In this case, the guy can't get a job, has to limit his driving, and can't do anything that could possibly bring him to the attention of ICE. He's not getting the benefit of those that go the speed limit. The pissing on argument is a silly thing and either needs to be modified or simply abandoned as DOA.

 

I would be willing to bet a weeks pay that his entire college career was through some type of public funding and/or scholarships. I'm fine with the private scholarships but not public funding. He should be on a visa and after graduation sent back to Honduras. Then apply through the proper channels for citizenship.

That being said the "proper channels" for citizenship are nothing more than another way for the US Goverment to collect taxes. I know a guy that has a man that works for him that he helped him get his citizenship in 2011. It has taken him 12 years to become a US citizen. Numerous letters, trips to Houston, every year having to pay to keep his application valid. All the while paying his Fed. taxes. He married a US citizen. Even purchased a house. Not what you would expect for his line of work and background. We have talked a great deal about the hoops he has had to go through to become an American citizen. VERY conservative. I would say he values his citizenship more than the average American does. I know it has made me more thankful that I was born here!!

But from what I understand, the current visa, permitting and citizenship program DOES NOT WORK....

If there was one that did, without the need to hire 10-20k worth of lawyers, maybe more people would use it...

 

The basic premise is
other than his crime . . . he is good dude

no one is denying being undocumented is a crime
but
folx are minimizing it as. .. well . . it is not that big or important a crime
for law enforcement officers to deal with.

its like people *wish* they would handle smoking weed [or their criminality of choice]
just acknowledge it . . .and leave it alone

Rocket River

 

He did something the US government says he is not supposed to do. I will distiguish it from committing a crime though, because he didnt hurt anybody or damage anything per se directly. It's more like an infraction, whic is why a violator of such doesnt get time in the jail but rather be deported.
As to unfair enforcement of law. Two comments. First, again, we are different from a draconian society in that nonenforcement of law is persimissibe in certain cases. Cops, prosecutors, and judges are all given discretions. However such discretion is not unbounded. They are subject to review and scrutinies from higher authority and the publice. But when such discretion does take place, it doesnt mean the law is being applied unfaily, if you agree law is not just black leters but rather embodies more or less what we want our society to be.
Second, I think your comparison to all the traffic violations are misplaced. Undocument entry into the US is very very different from beaking traffic laws. I simply dont agree wh enforcement of one means equal enforcement of the other. There are entirely different policy concerns.

 

Just curious, can illegal immigrants get federal grants? That would be one of the biggest issues.

 

They can get Financial Aid, and some also receive from private sources or public funds specifically set aside for their appropriation. See I Have a Dream Foundation; California Dream Act

Unfortunately this likely hurts my side and adds fuel to the flames of hate, but the information is there. If you think that federal grants or state grants should not be given to Dreamers (undocumented students), vote and lobby your state and federal congressmen to stop it. Since some states have voluntarily passed funding initiatives, if you disagree you ask your state senator to vote against any extension of public funding to them in Texas.

If you are referring to other public funds, I am not sure. However, I do know that that the The 1996 Personal Responsibility and Work Opportunity Act barred illegal immigrants from receiving any welfare benefits except in medical emergencies. It also barred legal immigrants from eligibility for welfare benefits during their first 5 years in the country. Additionally, undocumented Immigrants on a whole pay income tax, sales tax, and property tax without being able to receive any refunds.

 

Sure, it's more of an ethical argument, which means I won't be able to sway you to my side. I think it shares more similarities traffic violations or smoking weed than you do. If you are truly at 100%, I'll just agree to disagree.

I don't know enough about the inner-workings of the police force, but I am under the impression that if a cop knows that you committed a crime, they probably have the duty to investigate. If you tell a cop that you did something, do they know? Possibly, though I imagine their decision to investigate is going to be based on A) their certitude that you committed the crime X B) how serious the crime is balanced against C) some number mapping to how busy they already are. While cops can make this determination because they have received training for traffic and criminal laws, they do not have the training to make this determination with respect to immigration laws.

I already explained why it is not easy to deport someone. As to your belief that just because someone says they are “illegal,” they are actually here “illegally.” You make a common error that demonstrates you know nothing about our immigration system.

This might astound you, but there are people who think they are in the US "illegally" that are actually US citizens. There are also people who were once in the US "illegally," and are now citizens. Just because someone is in removal proceedings doesn't mean they are here illegally. The government bears the burden of proof to establish deportability in INA 237 proceedings by clear and unequivocal evidence. While the alien bears the burden by evidence that is clearly and beyond a doubt entitled to be admitted in INA 212 proceedings (this guy would likely be in 212 proceedings since it appears from the article that he was never admitted into the US). Either way, the case is not a done deal.

The use of the term "illegal" flattens this important distinction. Not everyone who is "illegal" is in the same boat as this kid. Many are lawfully admitted and overstay, some are even waived into the United States at the border as children. A waive through = lawful admission under case law, but it is difficult to prove. Either way some "illegals" are here legally and the government bears the burden of demonstrating they are deportable. Even for those who were never lawfully admitted, the government has to still try the case. Police simply aren’t equipped to deal with immigration laws, so they focus on what they are equipped to handle. Sometimes they do enforce immigration laws, e.g. Arizona, Georgia, Alabama, but Texas has so far failed to pass any state law requiring them to do so. Even the so called Sancutary Cities Bill that was supposed to be a cornerstone of the Rick Perry Presidential run failed to pass in state congress.

I said it earlier:

I think it is quite reasonable to expend resources to deport dangerous criminals or those who have bad equities once they come to the attention of the attention of ICE and DHS. But, in a world of finite resources we have to have priorities, this kid and others like him aren’t a priority and shouldn’t be. I’ve explained this multiple times now, so I’ll ask you, given a world of finite resources, why should this guy be prioritized over a criminal alien?

It's not a loophole, it's a priorities choice by a federal agency. And it doesn't give them status, it just means they won't put them in removal proceedings unless they come to their attention.

You’ve repeated yourself here, so I’ll repeat myself too. Go read my earlier post in this thread for an explanation as to why it does indeed take something to deport this guy. If you disagree, that’s fine, but this is an agency assessment based on some level of deliberation. That doesn’t mean that they are necessarily right, but it does mean that you need to do something other than petulantly say “nuh uh,” to show that they are wrong.

It must be boring to see the world in just black and white. I prefer color. That is not my rationalization. My rationalization is that even if it does cheapen, the manner in which it cheapens is so negligible to render the cheapening argument void. This is not like the situation where someone cheats to get a grade. It’s a situation where someone cheats to get a grade, and either is caught and gets a 0 or cheats successfully and still gets a 10. These guys are not getting any of the same benefits of people who entered here legally. As I said, they don’t get work authorization, if they do manage to work, they don’t even get any benefit of the welfare systems they help fund, they don’t get citizenship and they live in fear of being caught. The goal of legal immigration isn’t just to get here, if it was they’d just get a tourist visa and overstay. The goal of legal immigration is to work legally or get on the path to citizenship. Nor is it like your example where a co-worker sleeps with the boss to get some benefit ahead of you. Given that they get no benefits that a legal immigrant gets other than being in the US. As I said, the cheapening argument is silly. I for one am outraged that you would say that the benefits of citizenship are equal to those enjoyed by illegal immigrants - you sir are cheapening citizenship! Look maybe you have actually adjusted to citizenship, but I doubt it. Presuming you didn't, you probably earned it by being born here or in a US territory. If what you did to earn citizenship was being born here, by your argument you’d cheapen the hard work of those who have earned citizenship the hard way. Those people who got status the lawful way should be outraged and feel cheapened by you and others like you who worked who worked for your status by happening to come out of a woman's womb in this country. Unlike an illegal immigrant who risked life and limb crossing into this country, but gets next to nothing, you get ALL the benefits of Citizenship, but you did nothing! If some hard-working legal immigrant said that, I wouldn’t agree, it's absurd. The cheapening argument is silly and should be abandoned.

 

The government more that says don't do it.
It *has* a law against it. It is not s governmental suggestion!
Isn't the same argument for prostitution?
A "victimless crime"

Rocket River

 

I dont think it was a bad question (and i'm hispanic, fwiw)


If he's here illegally, he's risking deportation every day, especially if it's already public information. If he gets deported, how can he serve his term or continue it? A gay or atheist president doesn't have that above their head. Therefore, it's a good question to ask and not comparable to the other things.