Lets take it a step further, glynch. Why even make the guy show up for work? Couldn't we just pay people and let them stay at home? That would save lots of gasoline. Maybe if he got bored watching TV he could come by and do a little work? That way when he would only be working when he was most motivated to do a good job... Do you think that that would be a viable situation?
Then he didn't need the union, lol. Oops. You need to calm down. Who said anything about forbidding anything? What are you talking about? I don't think a stocker should get $24 an hour. How does that translate into disdain for the working class. Man, your logic is bordering on idiocy. And as we've gone round and round many times, you're in no position to castigate someone for not 'joining the troops.' I was in my early twenties. It was one of my 3 jobs. I worked full time stocking on the graveyard shift from 12-6, I went to school in the mornings, worked lunch at a mexican restaurant and dinner at an Italian place. I had a wife and young child to support while simultaneously fighting to get through school, so frankly you can take your 'elitism' bs and stick it where the ol' sun don't shine. I think that qualifies as having the experience to have an opinion, not, as Ottoman has pointed out that you have to have done it to have an informed opinion. Now tell us your experience as a low skilled worker trying to make ends meet with a family and a minimum wage job so we might evaluate your credibility on the issue. Hobo'ing out of town to avoid the draft doesn't quite cut it.
For the record Hayes, I think you are speaking very well in this thread. I urge you, however, to be more careful in practicing what you preach. Also for the record, I agree with Azadre.
Collective negotiation is primary function of having a union and the whole reason while unions came about. Without a union there's no agent to collectively represent the employees as they negotiate with management.
No, I don't think he should get paid for not showing up, nor do I think unions advocate that. I do know that after Hayes proclaimed that an unskilled worker with a lot of experience should not get paid more than someone who just started that he then said the guy just sat around and smoked. I did not give it much credibility since it sounded like Hayes was mainly pissed that as a college student he got paid less than the guy who had been there for years. I think as sometimes happens if college grads or professionals don't get paid as much or have as good of working conditions as union workers they should not get resentful but organize.
Unions do and have the right to negotiate labor contracts with employers. They also have the right to go on strike. Employers have the right to hire unskilled or unqualified "scabs". The dude who makes $24 an hour stocking milk, ultimately, deserves what he gets because the employer agreed to pay him that much. That is how freedom works. Do I personally think he is getting "overpaid"? Yes. So do a lot of athletes, actors, musicians, CEOs and a lot of other rich people. But ultimately, in this system, someone is agreeing to compensate these "overpaid" people. If the government starts mandating "just pay and wages" numbers, then we're all screwed. I do think that Unions are losing power in the US. There are a lot of Federal and state safety laws, etc. that now ensure a lot of the safeguards that unions used to have to negotiate. It seems that unions now focus moreso on compensation. With a large supply of low-skilled workers coming into the US and globalization, union power to effectively negotiate higher wages for their members seems to have waned.
Hayes. That is quite admirable Hayes. Not everybody can do that. Too bad you did not have a union job so you could have been paid more, so you did not have to work three jobs. That is why unions are so important to having a middle class country.
That's the point, glynch. It is still my opinion that I got what my skills were worth. I'm not 'pissed' at the milk stocker - I spent plenty of Sunday mornings (I didn't work at the Mexican place and the Italian place was closed) at Linda's Lounge throwing back cold ones and shooting pool with the guy, but he didn't deserve $24 an hour to stock milk - it was ridiculous outcome of having a union at Kroger's.
I was forced to join a union the other day, so I'm dismissing all of your collective opinions on unions and substituting my own. Clearly, since I've officially been in a union for a little over a week, I am the only expert on the subject here. So far, all I really know about it is that I'm $2,500 poorer than I was before I joined the union thanks to the initiation fee.
Mr. Paige as employers like to say you were are "free to choose" and they have an "open door policy" so you were free to quit. I'm sure many doctors and lawyers wish that they could still remain licensed, have all the percs and not have to pay professional dues.
So, since he is free to quit, that precludes his right to complain? If that's the case then, since we are all free to leave the country, no one should complain about the government?
That is a good point. Licensing fees are in the thousands and so are dues to professional organizations so its not like non-unionized professionals aren't paying to work. In fact the professional organizations do many of the same things that the unions do.
Yeah, 1.5% of all covered earnings. I don't really care about the $2,500, one-time fee. It's just the cost of doing business in this particular closed shop. And given the protections the union guarantees (a minimum salary that's as much as three times what some non-union companies pay for the same work. Requiring employer companies to pay into a pension plan that's administered by the union. Educational programs. Some working condition guarantees and rights that people working with non-union companies in the same industry don't often have), the initiation fee is a small price to pay (plus, I didn't have to pay it all at once. I'm paying it 5 monthly payments of $500 each, but they would've stretched it out to up to a year, I believe, had I wanted to stretch it out that far). It won't take a couple of years to make that initiation fee back from the added benefits having the union minimums/protections. And, best of all, for some reason, I get a discount at the Apple Store thanks to my union membership. We also don't have my biggest complaint about some unions - that salaries are based almost exlusively on seniority. The union has obtained minimum guarantees, but employees are able to personally negotiate for better treatment, more money, etc. Employees can never do worse than the minimum agreement, but they can negotiate to do better or be personally rewarded for productivity, etc.
So how did they force you mrpaige. was it mafioso style? some guy visited your home with a bat, saying, "it would be benificial to your health to join"?
It was a closed shop. I either had to join to work in this part of the industry, or I could go "financial core" and pay a reduced initiation fee and pay a smaller amount in dues and not have the ability to vote on union matters and not get the pension/health stuff (the companies are still required to treat "financial core" members as if they were full members, so they receive the pay benefits, etc.)
