I think the terms "right", "left", "conservative" and "liberal" are all very ill defined, especially when applied to different spheres (e.g. economics, social behavior, foreign policy, etc) and in different situations. I actually think the US is more left-leaning or liberal in most areas than the worldwide average. Part of the perception of the US as right-leaning is due to the fact that the most frequent comparison we see is versus western Europe, which happens to be the most liberal and left-leaning area in the world. Also, even though there has been a number of politicians being elected in South America with left-leaning political and economic agendas, I wouldn't say that region is socially more liberal than the US.
Unions did incredible good from those roots in the 19th century. They are responsible for so much that the general public, overwhelmingly non-union, take for granted. You might say that many of us enjoy the benefits of an often bloody struggle to unionize, a struggle that directly led to those benefits being taken for granted by so many bent on dismissing unions as relevant today. "In the final equation to me they are generally the tragic example of why many of the beautiful social ideas of the 19th century generally don't work as planned in practice. In the end, everybody's looking out for themselves." Generally, they did work out as planned. The problem for unions today is that the very industries they helped to make safer for workers, that they caused to pay decent wages to workers, and that they forced to provide far better benefits to workers are being marginalized, and exported overseas. Those industries that could still gain a great deal from unions have been highly successful in keeping them out, in part because of collusion by various levels of government, with some monumental lobbying efforts greasing the way. A perfect example is the huge service corporations, like Wal-Mart, that take full advantage of the lack of a union presence, by keeping wages too low, and benefits as small as possible. Another would be the tech industry, here in Austin, for example, who hire very large numbers of "temporary workers," that have little of the benefits, or wages, of regular employees. Please don't misunderstand, Ottomaton... you generally make a reasonable point. I just find it far too broad. When I was young, and working for a couple of Houston newspapers that were unionized, I paid dues, and I also made over $20 an hour for shift work. Around 1970, that was an outstanding wage. The newspapers were making money at the time, and the union workers could afford to have at least a lower middle-class standard of living. Single folks, like me, who were living on their own, and going to college, could work 3 graveyard shifts a week, and afford an apartment ($65 a month, bills paid, for a garage apartment 2 blocks from Hermann Park... I've managed to go my entire life without living in one of those god-awful apartment complexes), a car, and a lot of other things, as well as have time to go to school. Unions are far from perfect, but they are still relevant, and still very needed in many industries currently, in the main, that are non-union. In my opinion. Keep D&D Civil.
Hey! An interesting comment. As you can see from my earlier post, I agree with a lot of what you say. Post more often! Good to see you in D&D. Keep D&D Civil.
One of the great evils of our world. Not open for discussion. How about millions for CEO's who lose money. Why is it ridiculous. He did not go to Rice U? . Well I disagree. Is that what they told you at Rice U. ? Elitists!?
On this we can agree. Agreed. I don't agree. Sort of like the old quip about democracy. The best we have. Dog eat dog libertarianism is only good for the fortunate, the young, the healthy and the strong. I agree to a certain extent, but when you have virtually no southerners with actual experience bombarded from birth by corporate media with strong anti-union biases, you seldom have anthing more than a repetititon of the prevailing corporate orthodoxy they have been exposed to.
I think you misunderstand. I was refering to the larger world of 19th social theories that tend to base themselves around the idea that people will spontaniously work for the collective good without prodding. See The Problem of the Commons. I don't think Dickens would have in his wildest dreams come up with the idea of Jimmy Hoffa and the Teamsters being in bed with the mob.
You do agree, then, 'cause this is exactly what I'm saying. It's not perfect and as long as we understand that we are a-ok. I'm not advocating eliminating unions by any means.
Not sure what this is about. Unless I'm mistaken we are....discussing it, lol. I think CEO compensation should absolutely be tied to performance. And your point is? Er, because the work is not worth paying that wage? What does going to Rice have to do with anything? I don't doubt for a minute that you disagree, glynch. I apologize if I insinuated somewhere that you did! Please explain why it is elitist to think unions force companies to pay more than their workers are worth. wtf kind of broad stroke is this? Gracious me, check your worldly ego at the door.
I think he would have. Power corrrupts. I do agree with your idea that unions as well as church's and of course, governments and corporations need to be watched and revolted against occasionally.
So you think most people in society get paid what they are worth". How naive in my opinion. So all the bond salesmen, info commericial guys, hedge funds guys, public school teachers, rappers and NBA guys and social workers and GI's all get paid what they are worth. People get paid what they get paid for any and often for no reason at all. Please explain the moral principle that says the owner shoud get paid so many more times than the workers. Most companies that pay union workers more than a person like you defines them as worth can afford to pay. Should all Americans get paid less since Chinese make less for the same job? Rice U. is relevant as many folks especially if they went to an elite school or had a high SAT score think that they somehow deserve more than a working guy just cause.
My statement was that paying someone $24 an hour to stock was ridiculous when they're paying the next guy $3.35 to stock. Rather than drawing strawmen why don't you explain how that is naive, lol. Do you get paid for no reason at all? Wow, what do you do - glynch? 'Why shouldn't they' is the more appropriate question. Really? Like GM? Or the airlines? Or K-Mart? Please enlighten us. Should we pay fifty times the cost for goods to be made here instead of importing them? I'm not so sure about that. It's not 'just cause,' glynch. That's pretty disingenuous of you. But hey - its not unforseen from you in a thread named 'ideology.'
Seniority and experience. I don't begrudge he guy a middle class wage. Why does it upset you. You can't afford milk or bread? So you have no answer to your unexamined assumption that the owner should be paid so much more than the actual workers. Well it is eltiist to say nobody here should be paid more than Chinese workers imho. . The usual is it chutzpah or lack of awareness when you frequently within the same thread employ the same reasoning or tactic you are objecting to!!
I suspected you were taking that tact, but chose to view it just as it applied to unions. People fixate far too much on the Hoffas and Mob influence on unions. Did the Mob infiltrate, corrupt, and use some of the unions? No question about it. That doesn't mean the early unions activists who initiated so much progress for those who followed should be dismissed, or that the vast majority of union members were, and are, decent, hard-working men and women, with families to feed. Sometimes the stereotypes thrown around here, and I can guilty of it as well, border on the rediculous. One can easily make the same argument about the corporate influence on politicians in general, and the current party in power, including the President. Money thrown around in huge quantities. Very high paying positions promised after leaving office, for favors recieved. Business, in the current administration's case, being given to high-dollar contributor's corporations, and corporations with long-standing ties to officials in the highest levels of this government. No-bid contracts being handed out in huge quantities, for huge amounts of money, to corporations with close ties to the Administration. Tax breaks beyond the wildest dreams of avarice given year after year to big business and the rich, despite record deficits, increases in the size of government, and a freakin' WAR. And people are still raggin' on unions? Please... it's absurd. If those who claim to truly be conservatives (not addressed to you, Ottomaton), really were, they would be livid with the GOP and the Bush Administration. Just livid. The hypocrisy is incredible. Keep D&D Civil.
America is such a large, diverse country that it is a little hard to characterize it as a whole as "left" or "right". Also - by "right" or "left" - do you mean religion or economic system?
Sort of a response to Deckard and Hayes, too. Why sweat the one guy who makes $24 hr due to seniority. He is probably at an age where he is no longer a college kid, if he ever was, and has some kids. Is $48 k really so much that we should be bent out of shape? Hayes, if he really has such a much better deal in life than you do, why not try to trade places, perhaps you have what it takes. I like living in a middle class country. The beach in Acapulco is beautiful, but detracts from the joy of sipping a pina colada under the palapa for an 8 year old kid to come by every two minutes seling chicle or a guy with no legs to be begging.
American Conservatism is a grotesque marriage of quasi-libertarian with pro-business principles plus a core of fundamentalist leaning Christian groups. At one point it demands less government interference while at another it uses government policy to force shifts in public behavior. American Liberals would share similar contradictions by being its polar opposite. It's support of gun restrictions would logically contradict to its principles. Further down the line, it's support of large infrastructural projects would benefit corporations of scale the most. Issues that would make the US appear socially conservative around the world are: capital punishment, justifying and abusing non-combatants, maintaining a mobilized military during peace, attaching morally religious strings to foreign aid. Like all filtered ideologies, these issues are periodic and doesn't entirely reflect the views of the public.
You shouldn't get a raise because you've been doing the same low skill job for a long time. If you have more experience, and that has value then certainly you should get more money than you did before. Stocking milk didn't change much over his tenure and he spent most of his shift sitting in the deli smoking cigarettes. So no, I don't think he was worth $20 + more an hour than the next low skill worker nor should Kroger be forced to pay him such a ridiculous sum under threat of a strike. It has nothing to do with what I can afford. That was my answer. Why on earth would it be any other way? I don't think anyone said that, again you construct strawmen. Nor have you advanced an argument why it WOULD be elitist to contend that a worker here should get way over what the market would normally pay for his or her services. No, it's just your inability to properly distinguish between well reasoned argument and what you engage in. I was in his place, slick. I'm not any longer. That doesn't have anything to do with it. Take your copy of Norma Rae out of the DVD player and step away.
Why not? Did God or mother nature decree this? Actually peopl tend to get faster at jobs over time-- even unskilled jobs. If they have come to work reliably employers like to reward them with more vacation and higher wages for their loyalty. Why would you in your infinite wisdom forgbid this ?. Would you make this against the law or a crime? Such an elitist. Such disdain for the working class. Is that why you won't join the troops? You were how old? Was it a full time permanent job for you? BTW was he married? Did he have kids? How exactly were you in his place?
