It's obvious the role players shoot the ball better when it comes from Paul. Paul throws a softer, more accurate pass. He's just a superior passer. He throws a pass that's much easier to catch in rhythm than the missiles Harden fires because he's forced a play and is then forcing the pass. These points should be obvious from naked eye observation.
thnx and what about the diversity of looks? i think cp3 provides looks that are more varied in kind than those created by harden, watcha think?
LOL people here on this thread act like the Rockets were 2nd to the warriors on offense last year despite of Harden being the full time PG and his "inaccurate and forced" passes and "limited" looks he gave the team. 55 wins was the max for that team & coach around harden. I doubt cp3 nor lebron could have carried the rockets past 50 games last season
CP3 is the better point guard, so he could yield a better offense. One could argue that James is the better scorer so it evens out though. Still, there are some questions about the OP because why are we comparing last year's offense compared to this years offense? The team is different. We should actually be comparing the offense with today's team which we can actually do. It's a very small sample size since CP3 has only played in 18 games, but so far this season CP3 has an on-court offensive rating of 117.1 (click) when James Harden is off the court. Harden has an on-court offensive rating of 113.6 (click) when CP3 is off the floor. Still, these ratings are skewed due to CP3 missing a ton of games, so what I will do is go to the 14 game win streak and use that as a sample size even though it's small, and will favor high offensive ratings for both. This should be somewhat fair enough though, right? CP3 On-Court OffRtg with James off the floor during 14-win streak: 124.0 (10.8 minutes) (click) Beard On-Court OffRtg with Chris off the floor during 14-win streak: 117.3 (14.7 minutes) (click) And there's a bunch of stuff you can kind off those two links such as Harden playing closer to 15 minutes without Chris while Chris plays closer to 10 minutes without James. You can also check the minutes other players played and stuff. For funsies Beard On-Court OffRtg during 14-game stretch without Chris: 112.9 (click) So basically, what the OP should be looking for is Chris having a higher OffRtg than 112.9 for the next several games without Harden instead of comparing last year's team. I'm not sure what this accomplishes though because the team will still play minutes without CP3 during this stretch, and also that net rating is far more important than OffRtg.
While it's true that Paul is a better pure PG than Harden he can't carry a team like Harden does these days. Too fragile and a bit too old. We need other players to step up. EG, CC, and especially RA must play better.
I think the team will play faster and there will be more layers in the offense. Less stagnation at the end of games.
No question that is true. Paul has a randomness to his game. He can float around with the ball anywhere, waiting for the defensive chess pieces to move and then find his guys all over the place. With Harden it's either pnr or iso. He either takes the pull up three, or he drives and tries to finish, throws the lob or throws to the corners/sidelines. You knew the possession is going to end when Harden sets up. When Paul sets up the possession could end or the ball could come all the way around the horn, back up top, and then another iteration. Paul can make more than one thing out of a possession.
Second round loss in the playoffs with Harden completely blown up. Harden is a scorer, first and foremost. He's a playmaker for others secondary to his scoring. Paul is a shot creator for others first. He doesn't have to score to create. He's in a whole different class than Harden as a playmaker. 55 wins is meaningless. The only thing that matters is can you win four 7-game playoff series in a row? Hopefully the two together can accomplish the goal. But it will only happen with both players healthy and Harden relinquishing control of the offense to Paul for significant stretches of the game.
agree anyone who is really interested in an honest/unbiased apples to apples comparison of offensive impact between the two players should do this
55 wins was needed to get 3rd seed and not be swept by GSW in the second round cp3? 51 wins and bounced by utah Lebron? 50 wins and 2nd round sweep by gsw MDA & Morey can't think of anyone better to single handedly lead the rockets last year
And while this is definitely painting a picture of cp3 running a more proficient and historic offense, besides just sample size, you have to add the variable of cp3 constantly plays the lead bench role. He faces bench units and in turn easily skews the odds in his favor. I’m not trying to make an argument for or against either player. Hey are both rockets doing great. But to compare even the 14 game streak is a bit disingenuous in itself. The only base mark we can honestly and respectfully compare will be all the games cp3 starts and runs going forward without harden. Against all the games harden played this year without cp3. And even still it won’t be an even comparison because they schedule will be vastly different. I hope, truly hope, cp3 can keep our offense humming as efficiently as harden did. Truth is hardens ability to pull up, or attack so feverishly off the PnR really challenged defenses. While Paul is certainly more “efficient” and less turnover prone, he isn’t as explosive. Expect a lot of teams to sag off the pnr and force Paul into shooting an early shot clock 3 he doesn’t really like taking. And that will be he battle because Paul will want to take his time, prod, and find the best look. Meanwhile, mda will want him to jack up that shot and push pace. It will make it easier to slow down our pace and ultimately our explosiveness as an offense. Ask yourself what’s better. 100possessions a game at 1.0ppp Or 80possessions a game at 1.2ppp
i guess the 80 possessions is better because it leaves less transition opportunities for the opponent
No one man can carry the team, so why argue who is better? One guy will always be the hero on teams, but nobody wins championships because of one superstar, or even two. We all know what one guy lacks in defense maybe someone else lacks in offense. When guys get hurt we need guys to step up. It was obvious with CP3 and Clint out, that even when James scored 50 points it wasn't enough. All the arm flexing and who is the real MVP nonsense doesn't mean squat. I hate the term MVP in team sports, because it takes a team to win. Sure, people want to see the star or their favorite take all the shots, and enjoy a good show. But, it isn't rocket science to know that if a man takes twice as many shots as another man every single game, then he will probably score twice as many points every single game. That doesn't necessarily mean the shots were in our best interest if they were forced, or if others were wide open waving their arms for the ball at times. I believe that spreading the ball out a little more all the way around will bring out the best in all our guys. When one or two guys aren't trying to do it all then we might have more chances for open shots, and keep the game more high paced instead of slowing it down with ISO ball. As long as Gordon doesn't act like a horse with blinders on when he gets that ball in his hands, then we don't need to panic with him getting more minutes. If he doesn't get that ball to Clint, or any other open man more, then we will need to panic, because both he and CP3 will be swarmed with coverage. We don't need to see them forcing shots that aren't our best option to score. This is where the coach needs to run the show, do what he is paid to do, and make adjustments. We just need to get back to what we do best. Move that ball around a lot, keep up the pace, get back to the slam-dunk-fest, and keep the defense scrambling.
I don't know. Seems like we should give Chris a chance to win some games on the court sans Harden before freaking out over the whole Harden/Paul thingy. I'm looking forward to seeing this play out. I'd love nothing better than to see Paul turn this team into an offensive juggernaut, and when Mbah a Moute returns, soon, if we're lucky, I think the defense will turn around. That's a positive outcome. Let's see if they can do it. It would be nice to see James returning to a well oiled machine. I think he'd be happier than anyone else around here.
Interesting variable again as well. The 80possessions is a much more efficient ortg but not as explosive per game. The transition opportunities off misses should be weighed but alas it depends on defense, which we aren’t great in transition, but there is a reason pace around he league has constantly been going up. Surely you understand it was just a round basis comparison for laymen’s terms. Those aren’t exact comparisons but rather numbers to spark differences in arguments. Our current pace is 101.37 which ranks 8th. But a more conventional comparison is last years pace with both harden and cp3 running their own team, since we don’t have data yet to compare on this current season. Houston as a whole was 3rd running a 102.54 pace Clippers as a whole was 17th running a 98.22 pace Not such a broad difference obviously. Cp3 had a tremendous ortg last year of 116.2 which was 3rd among regular rotation players behind only steph and Durant. I can’t stress enough how amazing this is because the top 10 is littered with gsw role players and their insane team. Harden had a great ortg last year of 113.6. Again, not such a broad difference. Just for shiits and giggles I will run the math on ortg x pace -:- 82. I have no clue who it favors but here goes. Cp3 - 139.184 Harden - 142.054 They are very close, like I imagined. Also like I imagined, slightly higher pace slightly outweighed slightly better efficiency. Now this statistical experiment doesn’t explain much other than they produce very similarly over the long haul with harden holding the edge offensively because of the importance of pace. But what it doesn’t account for is end of game stagnation/execution which cp3 is significantly better at. I want “shared” PG duties because they both provide something so vastly different that it’s hard to defend. Hardens weaknesses and what defense allow him is what cp3 arrives at. Vice versa, where cp3 lacks is where harden excels. It’s an amazing pairing and I hope both are fully healthy in the playoffs.
