How would you rank prime Hakeem among the All time best NBA Centers?

1 - Wilt: Simply dominating at will. More than just the hundred point game, led the league in assists, almost never sat, unstoppable.

2 - Kareem: Forced a rule change, what else do you need to say? A blocking machine, great on offense. Never really stopped producing.

3 - Bill: You can't argue with 9 championships. The only guy that could stop Wilt. Only thing that keeps him from being 1 is that he had a better supporting cast, and a fantastic coach, so he has to share the glory.

4 - Hakeem: Transcended the position. Terrific defensively, getting blocks, steals, and intimidations. Deft and agile on offense.

5 - Shaq: Incredible speed and agility for someone of his Herculean strength. Underrated offensively, has a lot of moves. Decent shot blocker. FT's kill him.

 

This is the worst argument I ever hear. "It's 'cause he's big". Well, Hakeem was good because he was faster and quicker than most centers, so you can't count that, right? Shaq dominates. Period. I don't care if he's fatter, shorter, taller, wider, uglier... Wilt dominated for the same reasons. The guy was a giant among boys.

You're in a different offense. You're expected to do different things. You aren't the focus of the offense at all times. I'm not saying that Shaq's at his peak right now, but simply because your stats go down doesn't mean you aren't at your peak. If that were the case, Jordan peaked in '86 or '87. His stats may have peaked then, but his basketball skills didn't.

*EDIT* : and of course after I finish typing this, I see 4chuckie uses the same example. lol.

 

The rivalry with Chamberlain began Nov. 7, 1959, at Boston Garden. Chamberlain outscored Russell 30-22, Russell outrebounded Chamberlain 35-28, and the Celtics beat the Philadelphia Warriors 115-106.

Against Russell, Chamberlain won the battles, becoming the first to win MVP and Rookie of the Year honors the same season. But Russell and the Celtics won the first of eight consecutive championship wars.

Russell set an NBA record with 51 rebounds against the Syracuse Nationals on Feb. 5, 1960, a record Chamberlain broke with 55 against Boston nine months later. Russell won his second MVP award in 1960-61. And, of course, there were more championships.

Over the next two regular seasons, Chamberlain overshadowed Russell, scoring 100 points one night and leading the league in scoring and rebounding both years. But Russell kept winning titles, and he was voted his third and fourth MVP awards in 1962 and 1963.

"I played because I enjoyed it," he said, "but there's more to it than that. I played because I was dedicated to being the best. I was part of a team, and I dedicated myself to making that team the best."

Known for his shot-blocking and rebounding, Russell won five MVP awards and 11 NBA titles. He averaged 15.1 points and 22.5 rebounds per game over his career.

 

After all that, I forget to post my rankings (oy!) :

1) Wilt Chamberlain - inhuman... even if you put him as the second greatest player of all time; I can guarandamntee you the #1 guy ain't a center; he'd be a PG or an SG. It's a novelty to have a big man that can pass and get an assist. This freak o' nature led the league in assists. Of his games I've watched, he had nearly the power of Shaq and the non-stop drive of Hakeem. Shaq can't stop him, Russell couldn't stop him, Jabbar couldn't stop him, Hakeem couldn't stop him. Fugget about it.

2) Shaquille O'Neal - at 7'+ and 340 lbs, if the refs let him play, your name better be Wilt, because you sure as hell aren't stopping this man from getting to the basket.

3) Kareem Abdul Jabbar - quite possibly the most unstoppable move ever used on a basketball court. He was the proto-type center to come. He had finesse and agility... the forerunner to Hakeem? There's also something to be said for longevity and the ability to produce over that time, and this guy had that.

4 & 5) Hakeem & Russell. I have no idea. Pick one and leave the other for #5. I've hardly seen much of Russell's play, so I really can't comment. I just believe I've seen enough of the top 3 to know they were better.

 

Anybody remember this from the movie "Airplane"?

Murdock : Flight 2-0-9er to Denver radio, climbing to cruise
at 42,000. Will report again over Lincoln. Over and
out.

Joey : Wait a minute! I know you. You're Kareem Abdul-Jabar.
You played basketball for the Los Angeles Lakers.

Murdock : I'm sorry son, but you must have me confused with someone else. My name is Roger Murdock. I'm the co-pilot.

Joey : You are Kareem! I've seen you play. My dad's got
season tickets.
Murdock : I think you should go back to your seat now Joey.
Right Clarence?

Oever : Nahhhhhhhhhhhhhhh, he's not bothering anyone, let him stay here.

Murdock : But just remember, my name is ROGER MURDOCK. I'm an airline pilot.

Joey : I think you're the greatest, but my dad says you don't
work hard enough on defence. And he says that lots of times, you don't even run down court. And that you don't really try . . . except during the playoffs.

Murdock : The hell I don't!! ( grabs joey by collar ) LISTEN KID!
I've been hearing that crap ever since I was at UCLA.
I'm out there busting my buns every night. Tell your
old man to drag Walton and Lanier up and down the
court for 48 minutes.

 

Behad and Dr. of Dunk, yes I saw Wilt score 100 pts. whether you believe it or not. You are correct that no video was taken of the game, but there was a live T.V. broadcast. Check it out. I have no reason to fantasize or make this up. I remember it vividly because it was so amazing. Chamberlin looked like a man among boys; his teamates kept feeding him and he kept putting it in, most from very close range. At first it looked like one of his 50 + performances, but then I recall getting really excited as the numbers began to build. One of my best all time sports memories.

 

It's one thing to state your opinion and its also one thing to imply that some one is stupid. Whatever.

I admit I might not have seen as many Bill Russell and Wilt games as some on this board have seen, because I am only 22 years old, but I have seen some of their games. These games were some of their best and to tell you the truth they didn't impress me at all. Look Russell was a great defensive player but he would not last one minute in todays NBA as a center. My opinion not yours. Wilt was the most dominant force the game has seen but against what competition? Shaq would have averaged 100 ppg in that NBA and those rules. I think the level of the play in the NBA in the 80's was 100x higher than that in the 60's. That is why Ewing is higher than Russell on my list. Controversial? Yes. Joke? No. The only joke in my whole post was putting Cato in the top 1000.

 

He had 58 by halftime, so I guess you were talking about his pregame warmup.

 

solid,

I have no reason to doubt you. I always had heard that the game was not even televised. I was just making the joke because it really is a joke that gets repeated often - it seems like there were over 100,000 people who went to that game. Anyway, no offense intended.

 

Whatever

So your saying players like Olowakandi, Vin Baker, Ervin Johnson, Ostertag, Cato, Nazr Mohammed, Tony Battier, to name a few, are better players the Bill Russell?

Give me a break

 

Here is my list for the Best centers of all time

1. Akeem Olajuwon
2. Hakeem Olajuwon
3.Ralph Sampson 83-84 87-90
4. Manute Bol
5. Mark Eaton
6. Rik Smits

 

Well considering that they actually called charging & 3 seconds in those days I don't think Shaq would be quite so dominant. W/out the multi-million dollar PR campaign to swing so many calls in his favor he'd have a few problems. He wouldn't be able to shot 90% of his shots from 3 feet & in back in the day.

 

No problem.

Touche. Good point.

Is that supposed to impress me? Dream's stats didn't change much when we got Drexler, and they also hardly changed when we got Barkley. So while Shaq maintained his stats with Kobe and virtually no competition within the last few years, Dream maintained his stats with Drexler and Barkley on the floor with him, all the while playing against far-superior competition than Shaquille O'Neal. So who's "better" now?

Why is this the worst argument you ever heard? I'm not talking about dominance: I've already conceded that Shaq is more dominant, my point was that he dominates through size and strength. Those are physical attributes, not skills. (I also never said its "cause he's big." I said he dominates through his size and power, but I'm not saying at all that the man has no skills, I still say his skills are lacking far behind Hakeem) Dream dominated through skills: finesse, quickness, speed, offensive and defensive ability. You can teach all of those things, you can work on all of those things. Shaq would still be a big, tall, powerful man if he never left the couch. Dream's skills are what allowed him to break the record for total points scored in a 4 game series over (guess who?) Shaq.

I've never once said Shaq is only good because he's big and strong, but I will say that if he wasn't big and strong, he'd have to pull something out of his hat because if he had any decent competition against him, his skills alone wouldn't cut it.

 

If Hakeem, Russell, Shaq & Wilt were all 6'7" instead of 7' (I know Russell nor Dream were legit 7'ers) would they still have been in the league. I can say resoundingly yes to Wilt & Russell, possibly to Dream & not likely w/Shaq.

 

Much was made about Hakeem not being a true 7-footer all through his career. His speed, finesse, and agility are what made Dream great. He may not have the blocked shots record at 6'7", but he'd still be very high up in blocks. At that height, he'd be even faster and quicker and he'd have even more career steals (currently #6 all-time). Hakeem would be one of those "do everything" forwards at that height. The only one on your list I would question is Shaq: his game and dominance relies too heavily on his size and power. Dream at 6'7" would be a lock to me. Imagine Scottie Pippen with the ability to carry a team. That's how I'd see Dream at that height.

 

Did I put those guys on the list?! I'm sorry I did put Cato on the list but I thought some people might the find humor in it. Guess not.

Bob what I saw was Russell dominating a bunch of Joe Kleins and Danny Schayes... escuse me Dolph. Bob Pettit would not be averaging 20 rpg today, neither would Jerry Lucas and so on and so on. Athletes today are so much more in better shape than they were in years past that its not even funny. Just 10 years ago 300 lb linemen in the NFL were oddities today they are essential to survival. In my opinion Bill Russell in todays game would be Ben Wallace.

Bob if you want to live in your fantasy world fine, but do not for one minute try to force your beliefs onto me. The day your book on so called basketball knowledge gets published give me a call until then you could b**** and moan all you want about my list but it ain't going to change.

 

If Shaq was transplated back to the Wilt/Russ era and tried to play the way he does now, he'd foul out in the first 6 minutes. They actually respected a defender's right to space back then and didn't allow you to dislodge your defender with elbows to the chest, face area, etc. Shaq would actually have to develop a game and some skills if he wanted to dominate in an era where the refs called the game as it is supposed to be called.

 

And if Hakeem weren't fast and quick and 6'11", he'd be in trouble at center, too. His moves relied on speed and quickness to get open for a fadeaway or jumpshot. Again. It doesn't matter. They both dominate because of what they are and to sit around and say "well, if it weren't for..." is inane. Speed is not necessarily any more a skill than size. Quickness is not necessarily any more a skill than strength. If Shaq weren't Shaq, then I counter with "if Hakeem weren't Hakeem". Pointless.

 

If a monkey were a parrot, it'd be a parrot.
If Hakeem were John Goodman, he'd suck at center.
If Wilt were a woman, he'd be the greatest woman to play in the NBA.
If John Elway were a lineman, he would never have been a quarterback.

 

I've seen a few play and I think Dream was the best all around as far as both ends of the court. I've watched a lot of tape of Wilt and I think Shaq and Dream would have did a number on him, but you can't argue with the mind boggling numbers even in the era of sub 7fters he played against. Kareem is never given his due because they view his sky hook as a finesse play, but Kareem was pretty much unstoppable and he was a good athelete. Shaq has the attitude people wish Wilt has plus he's probably the most mobile player for his size I've ever seen. Russell was the leader/defensive player/rebounder but his offense sucked. I don't think it would have been hard to get 20rebs with 37% shooting bob cousy and some of those other awful shooters in that era. Moses was vastly overrrated because he wasn't as good when he was older, but think about the 30pts and 20rebs avg he had in his MVP seasons. He was a monster on the glass , a 80%ft shooter, and never fouled out of a nba game in his career. With all that being said , I think Wilt,Kareem,Dream,Russell,Shaq, then Moses. At the present rate though, Shaq will be probably the best because of his sheer unstoppability and he's only 30! 4 or 5 more yrs like the ones he's been having and he'll finish no less than 3rd. I love a center that likes being a center. You never heard the undersized Dream and Moses say they were really power forwards like a lot of these scary 7fters do.