How would you rank prime Hakeem among the All time best NBA Centers?

You're kidding, right? Russell at 9 and behind Pat Ewing ?!?!?!? Cato at ten? That was definitely a joke.

 

1. Wilt
2. Bill
3. Dream
4. Kareem
5. Shaq

To say that Kareem schooled Dream in Dream's rookie year doesn't mean much. Dream was a very good player as a rookie, but he it wasn't until his prime that he was unstoppable. Honestly how well would Kareem have done in his prime against Dream in his prime? Dream dominated everyone else in his era why would he stop with the one hook wonder? The only thing that hurt Dream was that he was injured to often to be consistent. If Dream was healthy throughout his career the blocks record would be his with no asterick. Even with the injuries he took the record.

This debate will never end, but don't sell Dream short.

 

Wakko67

Kareem would have done quite well

He was the best player @20 years old, in my opinion, EVER

 

OK, but do you think he'd have his way with Dream?

 

Kareem @ 20 years old against Dream in his prime?

No, Dream would prob win
but it would be a whole lot closer than most ppl would think

 

People totally underrate Kareem because of the skyhook. For some reason they think that was the extent of his game (one hook wonder .) Kareem was a very well rounded player, probably the best college player ever, and it is between him and Wilt for best center ever. Only Kareem, Wilt, Kung-Fu Karl, and Sir Charles had 20,000 points, 10,000 rebounds, and 4,000 assists. He could block shots. He was part of the showtime Lakers, so he could play the fast break game. The undefendable skyhook was just one more aspect of his game. I would have loved to see Shaq, Hakeem, Russell, Wilt, and Kareem all competing with similar supporting casts in their primes at the same time.

 

"I never thought I would say this, but I think Shaq is better than Hakeem. #'s wise, he is at least equal. I think he is more of an unstoppable force down low, and a better rebounder. Also, I think he handles the ball better. I've seen Shaq make some wicked assists and handle the ball well on a fast break. I've seen Shaq actually dribble it full court, and I 've never seen Dream do that"

-If you look at the #'s, Shaq is not superior to Hakeem as a rebounder. For a guy that incredibly huge, Shaq is not a dominant rebounder, he should tear down a LOT more than he does. He may indeed be slightly more unstoppable and dominant as a scorer, but Hakeem was miles ahead of Shaquille defensively. Hakeem in his prime could just dominate a game defensively and Shaq is a pretty mediocre defensive player.

-Also on Shaq's dribbling fullcourt, he only actually does that once every 15-20 games. It happens so infrequently that it's not really a relevant factor in his overall game but since it's profiled so heavily by the media, people tend to equate Shaq as a guy who can consistently take the ball fullcourt ala Charles Barkley, which is complete BS. Shaq is probably a better passer than Hakeem, but alot of that comes from playing in such a passing-friendly offensive system. Shaq couldn't pass for beans until Phil Jackson showed up and I'm sure if Hakeem had a real coach like Phil instead of Rudy T (who apparently has something against ball movement), he'd have passed the ball more smoothly.

 

Did you watch the playoffs in 99? DRob was way past his prime and effectively contained Shaquille O'Neal. Last year he was torched by Shaq, but of course Robinson is way overthe hill now.

If the Rockets had lost to the Spurs in 95, I believe DRob would have humiliated Shaq in the NBA Finals. I remember their matchups vividly back then and DRob gave Shaq fits with his quickness, taking him off the dribble at will and shooting midrange jumpers over him all day.

To be honest, I think DRob usually outplayed Shaq worse than Dream did. He altered many of Shaq's shots with his long arms and was just WAY too quick for Shaq offensively. Shaq and Hakeem usually played to draws, but DRob used to take Shaq. It could be why Shaq called him a punkass in his book last year.

Of course Shaq is bigger now than bag then but DRob was probably the best Center in NBA history at running the court and would expose the out of shape O'Neal at that aspect. It'd be a lot closer than you think. People's opinions get skewed from watching Shaq torch the horrible Centers that are in the NBA today. There's no way he'd dominate in that manner against guys like Drob, Hakeem, etc if the old fogies were in their primes.

 

you mean the 99 playoffs where Shaq averaged 26 pts 12 rbd against him?

Besides Shaq is much better now than he was in 99

better focus, better passing

credit Phil for making Shaq better

 

There are no film records of that game. In fact, no photographers even bothered to show up until late in the game (after word got out).

So were you one of the 4000 or so that was in Hershey that night?


I have to rank Wilt as #1, with a three way tie of Hakeem, Kareem, and Bill Russell second.

Honorable mention goes to George Mikan, the man for who the shot clock was invented.

 

Isn't that one of the long-running jokes in NBA history : there were 4000 there, but 400,000 swear they watched it.

I can't believe I'm getting involved in this (again... ), but...

My list of "the greatest" seems to change from month-to-month which probably lets you know I think these guys are very close to one another in terms of talent.

Anyone that puts Wilt at #1 simply because "he changed the game" is well, ain't thinkin'. Put Shaq back in the 60's and tell me he wouldn't have "changed the game". Shaq would destroy everyone short of maybe Wilt. And don't give me this "Russell knew all about defensive positioning" garbage. There comes a time when you realize that 7 feet and 340 lbs will go where it damn-well pleases and you will no longer be "defensively positioned" when it wants to encroach your space.

I'd like to watch some games with Wilt and Russell. Most of the stuff I've watched of them came later in their careers. I watched Kareem school Hakeem in their first encounters. I've watched video tapes of Kareem early in his career. The man is underrated. Everybody remembers the old, slow, lumbering, sky hook-a-second Kareem, but in his early years, he was much more than that. He was an absolute force with a shot that couldn't be stopped.

I can't compare Hakeem to Kareem, because Hakeem didn't reach his peak until long after Kareem's game had declined and he had left the game.

Offensively, and when healthy, there is/was no one that was more unstoppable in my mind than Shaq. Yes, Wilt scored in bunches and rebounded like a madman, but again... put Shaq back in the 60's, and he'd have done the same. Don't deny it, because you know it's true. Shaq throws 250-280 pound guys like rag dolls - he would've done the same to anyone back then except for maybe Wilt. He'd be averaging 40-50pts, and 20-30 rebs as well if he were healthy.

Defensively, I don't think any of these guys could really stop any of the others. I think offensively, they'd go off on each other. It's like Shaq and Hakeem in the Finals. Everybody keeps saying how Hakeem schooled Shaq. From what I recall, neither of them could stop the other to any extent -- and Shaq's overall game has gotten better since.

So how about Tim Duncan and Dirk Nowitzki... are they better than any of these guys?

 

Here is a man who knows his basketball.

 

Tell you what, if you ever do get a hold of any videos of Wilt or Russell in their primes, watch them very closely and then get back to me on your above statement.

 

Why do people keep talking about Kareem schooling Akeem early on....the Rockets crushed defending champ LA 4-1 in Akeem's second year. It was because of that butt-whipping that Riley decided to make Kareem take a backseat to Magic and go showtime the next year.

Well Hakeem was busy stopping the rest of the Magic team, along with Shaq. Also, when comparing Hakeem to any other center (especially Shaq), where he really becomes tough to beat is clutch free throws. I don't think I ever remember him missing a free throw in the fourth quarter of a close playoff game (slight exaggeration, but you get the point). Compare this to Shaq, who actually gets pulled from the game often because he can't make free throws. If the two players are close at all, that's where Hakeem clearly takes the lead (as well as defensively).

If you look at Shaq's numbers, they were better then than they are now:

'95, '02
pts -- 29.3, 26.9
reb -- 11.4, 10.7
blk -- 2.4, 2.1
ast -- 2.7, 3.1
fg% -- .583, .580
ft% -- .533, .539

He has a few more assists, and that's it.

 

Exactly. Shaq may have more experience now, but back then he was just as good. Unlike other players who reach a prime, for example, Shaq, IMO, has always been there. He wins today because Kobe Bryant is better than Penny ever was, not to mention a better supporting cast. Hakeem played Shaq evenly back then just as he would now if he was in his prime. That's why I'd put Hakeem ahead of Shaq right now. If Shaq continues to play for a number of years ala Hakeem, then he should respectfully be remembered as the better center (and I doubt Shaq's numbers wil nosedive as quickly as Olajuwon's did). But as of now, only 10 years into his career, Shaq is already showing to be more injury prone than previously expected and has hinted at retirement (but you can never tell how serious he is).

 

1. Wilt
2. Russell
3. Kareem
4. Shaq
5. Dream

Guys Dream may be the best all around center but it does not make him the best center.
Shaq does not have Dream's numbers defensively but Shaq is more dominating. Yes Dream was unstoppable for 4-5 year span but Shaq has already donee that and he is just reaking his peak.

 

Okay there Finny *-guy, here is Wilt's record vs. the Celtics during the era of Bill Russell where Wilt scored 50 or more points vs. Russell:

1/14/62, 62
2/23/60, 53
1/27/62, 53
12/13/61, 52
1/28/62, 50
1/30/63, 50

Now I didn't see the man play other than on old tapes, and I don't doubt Bill's defensive capabilities as I've read all of his stats (and yes, they are very impressive). However, the numbers above seem to point that Bill couldn't do a damn thing against anyone near his size. Russell also never averaged 20+ points at any point in his career. Like I said, Russell was awesome, and I recognize that, but I don't think he belongs in the top 3 of all-time centers when you've got players like Dream, Wilt, Kareem, Moses, and even Shaq to consider among the top choices.

 

See, this is where there is so much room to argue: Dream was better all-around, without the size, power and strength of Shaq. I can't sit here and let you say that Shaq is better just because he's bigger. Shaq dominates physically, not through his skills, like Dream did.

Oh, and Shaq is just just reaking his peak?? I'll go ahead and assume that you meant "just reaching his peak," but that doesn't make a damn bit of sense: How can you reach your peak with worse numbers than you had 10 years ago?

 

Lynus thanks for the grammar check.

As for reaching his peak, well let's comapre him to another guy who put up monster numbers his first few years then his number went down slightly and his team began winning. His name was MJ. Look at his stats in 86-89. They were his career years but you know what he got better:
MJ career highs:
37.1 pts/game in 86-87, 35 in 87-88
8 ast/game in 88-89
8 rbs/game in 88-89
1.6 blks/game in 87-88
3.2 steals/gaem in 87-88

Wow just think if he wouldn't have peaked so early! He could have been a really good player.

In case you don't get it stats don't matter as much as winning. Talk all you want about Shaq's stats not getting better, but he has found a way to maintain his stats with another super star on his team.

 

-Is it truly that Shaq has gotten better though or that the caliber of Centers he competes against nightly has gotten worse? There just aren't any good Centers these days and in Hakeem's prime there were at least 4-5 very good, superstar Centers. There isn't anyone to really make Shaq work defensively. He can conserve so much energy as a result.

You can't underestimate Freak's point about the FT's. There's no way in hell the Rockets would have been able to be as good in close games in 93-94 for instance if they had Shaq instead of Dream because Shaq is a liability in crunch time. In crunch time, LA goes to Kobe to avoid teams fouling Shaq.

I also doubt Shaq could have ever won a title with as weak a supporting cast as Hakeem had in 94.

Also, about Shaq's defensive #'s not being as good as Hakeem's, it goes way beyond numbers. On a scale of 1-10 defensively, Hakeem's probably a 9.9 and Shaq's about a 6. He does not control games defensively, although he is close to a perfect 10 offensively.