Homosexual conspiracy succeeding...

There are plenty of outlets for gay men to place themselves in mentoring situations.

We will have to agree to disagree on this topic. Of course, parents should have the final say regardless of the consequences for potential homosexual scout troop leaders.



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which parents? there are plenty who don't mind gay troop leaders. there was a troop in Illinois who said they would accept a gay troop leader and what did the BSA do? they forced that troop to disband for simply saying that.

The story was on 60 Minutes a few weeks ago

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[This message has been edited by outlaw (edited July 31, 2001).]

 

Achebe, what is your problem?

Did you disregard my opinion on this subject, make this up to be funny, or are you just trying to be offensive? I never came close to insinuating that gay men are pedophiles. You are a great example of the new fascists of our society- Liberals. You guys think that if somebody disagrees with you, then illogical attacks are fair responses.

I think it makes you look like you don't have any real ideas.

Since you obviously did not read my posts, I am not surprised.

The next time we trade messages, basketball will be the subject. Good night.


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The next time we trade messages, basketball will be the subject. Good night.


That's a very good idea, this isn't exactly the place to come for enlightened discussion about anything other than basketball.



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Whatever happened to feminism being about taking off bras and burning them? That was so much cooler. It had two things that men love - jiggly breasts and fire.

 

whoa. relax guy, you'll live longer.
rule #1 in this forum: don't take things personally (although I have broken that rule myself). If you have something to say then say it. Don't worry what anyone else thinks.

p.s. i hate tossed salad!



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I am very relaxed. My GP, Dr. Carlos Rogers, has me on a special herb prescription that allows me to disagree with others, and move on without grudges.



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Rodney, I'm of course playing around. Brian did get my blood up a little bit... but I converted it into the best leg workout that I've had in months.

I think that I did misunderstand a few of your points though:

Perhaps I misunderstood you, but that seems to insinuate that there are an abnormal amount of pedophiles in the population.

Perhaps I misunderstood you, but that seems to insinuate that heterosexual females and homosexual males are quite often pedophiles. I've had more than a few scrapes in which I had to get butt naked in front of the nurse. Sure I liked it, but I seriously doubt that my mother (who is homophobic) thought twice about it. Of course she would have been outraged if it were a male/homosexual nurse.

It certainly is your business. Noone disputes that claim. I am still confused by all of this pedophile talk though. Are there many pedophiles where you live? You seem to be hounded by them.

Well, first off, I'm always trying to be funny... I fail miserably but you still have to take my posts with a grain of salt. Also, I doubt that I'm a very good liberal. I waiver on abortion, I feel that highly regulated school prayer could be effective, I pondered a handgun when I caught a prowler on my porch. I'm actually quite dynamic. You?

BTW, if you ever care to introduce logic into the equation, let me know. I'd love to put 5 years of my life to use.

As it stands, the BSA uses federal facilities in some places. I'm sure the weirdos on the Supreme Court will suddenly declare that that's no longer a factor on enforcement of our rights, but I personally do not like to see the BSA on the Army base, when I pay a hell of a lot of money, or should I say when the government takes a hell of a lot of my money (this was actually the point though that I was downplaying earlier though; I still think that a major element in our society should preach tolerance w/ or w/o federal funds or facilities).

On your other points, I believe that adults have an above average record as far as not molesting children... regardless of gender or regardless of sexuality. It is certainly your prerogative to not put your child in that situation, but the underlying assumption that any adult is going to molest your child, also takes away the rights of that individual.

Awww... now you're being mean.

Back to outlaw's point... and it's actually the best point in this thread. Gay children getting kicked out of the Boy Scouts is far graver than the issue of a gay leader. Operating under the assumption that an adult is less likely to hurt himself or others when faced w/ rejection... I feel that the BSA is doing an incredible disservice to these children. One day I'll check into the stats one of my conspiracist friends says that he has. He told me that UT has a large homosexual population, and equally a large suicide rate merely b/c of the lack of an outlet for many homosexual male children.

That's just strange to me, b/c UT is a family state. There are several churches of all denominations... there are plenty of outdoor activities... and the Boy Scouts are well engrained into the society. If his conspiracy theorists numbers prove to be true, how are these kids falling through the cracks? Shouldn't a family state be able to make sure no kids slip through the cracks? Again, this guy is a conspiracy theorist on most issues, but if what he says is true, should we look to our community organizations to keep our kids safe?

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If he dies, he dies: Utah's Andre HarryBinko, after knocking down the Cavaliers Trajan Langdon.

 

Perhaps I misunderstand you, because you seem to be a psuedo intellectual pompous condescending jerk, and I know that can't be true.

Any number of pedophiles in the population is abnormal. Parents don't know who to trust, so everybody must be suspect. Anything short of this standard is irresponsible, and unfair to children who deserve to be protected.

You are comparing a medical situation with a Nurse to a camp bathing situation with a homosexual scout master? Nice logic!

This is the third time you have basically offered the same response. I would say that it appears you don't have many ideas, but I don't want to look mean.

Do people have a "right" to be a scout leader? The answer is NO for anyone scoring at home.

By all means, go ahead and offer no new ideas, and change the subject.

Congrats on your leg workout, and I hope my use of smilies made this post more enjoyable for you.




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Everytime I hear this discussion about gays and scouting, I think about the fact that Charles Whitman was involved in scouting. I guess I just think about how the Charles Whitmans of the world could still be scout leaders (up until they climb the tower, of course) but no gays no matter how otherwise "normal" they are (and by "normal", I mean the stereotypical norm that society seems to think of. I'm not saying that being gay is somehow abnormal).

I don't care what the scouts do. It is their bit to do what they will. It just seems like they're overly concerned about something that doesn't make any difference (of course, Americans spend a good bit of their time worrying about things that don't make any difference).

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MovieForums.com
FilmDallas.com
ThingFromUranus.com

 

Awww.... we disagreed.

Perhaps I misunderstand you, b/c you seem to be a disingenous idiot, and I know that can't be true.

Tell me more about this logic thing though the next opportunity you get.

You posted:

Yet...

So why have your children in the scouts at all? Is there a predisposition for homosexuals to be pedophiles over other individuals in the population? Why feel safe w/o homosexuals as scout leaders? Was your previous point mistaken?

May I ask, as an aside... did you camp very often in the scouts?

BTW, why is a female nurse more trustworthy than a homosexual or female scout leader? The female nurse has more access to children, far more often, than the scout leader.

I'm just taking what you give me. Feel free to make it interesting or challenging whenever you want.

The right to not be assumed to be a pedophile merely b/c of one's sexuality or gender seems rather poignant... but you seem to dizzy to make sense of my posts... what w/ your arguing in circles constantly.

Let me make it simple for you:

a) You argue that it's your choice. We should note that there have been assoc. disbanded b/c they disagreed w/ your choice. Apparently the only choice recognized is the one that assumes homosexuals are also invariably more often pedophiles than females. BTW, I did tell you that my mother was a scout leader, didn't I? I'll have to ask if she got a hold of some of that biscuit.

b) You ignore that the BSA uses federal funds and federal facilities; they are arguably therefore responsible to uphold federal laws concerning discrimination. Why do you ignore this? This is the primary obstacle that the BSA will face in the coming years(though it's not my primary concern); oh yeah, other than the fact that they'll have trouble getting funds outside of fundamentalist strongholds.

Nighty night.

Oh yeah, "it's all good bra".


*chirp* *chirp*

Anyone willing to tell me why homosexuality is immoral, please do so... my ability to call poodles & boy-bands 'gay' hangs in the balance.

 

Ah Gayness...

You know, I feel so much more relieved and at peace with myself ever since I decided (figured out) that homosexuals weren't any different then me or anyone else.

Maybe I'm insensitive, but I still use the term "gay" to describe stuff like that. Among my friends I still use the term. I even had the misfortune of using the term in front of one of my gay co-workers. I was talking about this sign we had outside our restaurant. The original sign read "Boobs and Toobs" or something to that effect. But, they had covered up the "boobs" with a license plate, although you could still obviously see what it was. I mentioned the sign to my co-worker as we were walking back into the restaurant and we were laughing at the weak attempt to be "PC", and I said, "Man, that's gay". I immediately felt bad, but I didn't mean it in any condescending way towards his sexual preference.

Obviously, I try not to use the term around those who I know to be homosexuals, but I'm gonna still use it when I'm not. Hmmm, that don't sound too good.....

outlaw or somebody, call me out on this. What is the consensus in the gay community, or if you can't speak for the whole group, what's your personal opinion?

I disagree. It was here on this very board that I changed my mind on the topic of homosexual marriage. If you choose not to have an "enlightened" conversation, you won't. But, if you try to, you might.

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I think the root to homophobia, or any type of bigotry is exposure.

Now, I don't contend that merely pushing people together will solve everything, but I think people fear what they don't know. If people have the opportunity to interact with people of different cultures, races, or sexual preferences, they will see how not different these people are. Sure, there are differences, but I think they should be regarded as good things as opposed to bad things.

There have been gay people that I've met and not liked, but it was due to the fact that they were jerks not because they were gay. I don't like jerks of any race, creed, or color. But, overall my experiences with homosexual individuals has been good. I get along with my family members who are gay, and I've gotten along with most co-workers that I've worked with who've been gay.

Now, I'm starting to babbel. I think this lack of sleep is beginning to catch up with me......


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DREAMer's Rocket Page

[This message has been edited by DREAMer (edited August 01, 2001).]

 

I try to stay out of threads like this, but I ALWAYS read every post. And I have to say that this is one of the most narrow minded, assinine, and least thought out statement made in this entire discussion.

Using this logic, then it's ok for boys to dress or bath with straight men? And exactly how are these boys supposed to know the difference?

"Ok look Billy, Scout master Dave has GAY tattooed on his ass. We better tell our parents so we won't be molested! Scoutmaster John has STRAIGHT tattooed on his ass, so it's ok for him to get naked in front of us."

Geez....



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A clear conscience is usually the sign of a bad memory.

 

You're such a fascist Behad...

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This post contains no smilies, you must judge my seriousness on your own...

 

i don't have a problem with it and i don't think most gay people do either. of course context and inflection are factors but i still do it on occasion myself. so go nuts achebe and dreamer!

"***" is another story. i'm not overly sensitive about it but would prefer if people wouldn't use it.

basically, i don't have a problem with adults (who know better) using these words non-threateningly. But when kids are saying it and they don't know the difference, they grow up thinking gay=bad. so if you're gonna say it, please don't say it around kids.

not that we're not guilty of the same thing. a lot of gay folks call straight people "breeders". do you find that offensive?

 

I would like to make two final points on this subject.

First, I don't feel comfortable with male children around homosexuals. I also don't feel comfortable with female children, especially young teens, around men I don't know well. If you people can't see that there is some risk is forcing young men and homosexuals together, I think you are plain stupid.

The 1948 Kinsey survey found that 37% of the gays and 2% of the lesbians admitted to sexual relations with under-17-yr-olds, and 28% of the gays and 1% of the lesbians admitted to sexual relations with under-16-yr-olds while they themselves were aged 18 or older. (18)

In 1970 the Kinsey Institute interviewed 565 white gays in San Francisco: 25% of them admitted to having had sex with boys aged 16 or younger while they themselves were at least 21. (19)

In The Gay Report, 23% of the gays and 6% of the lesbians admitted to sexual interaction with youth less than 16 years of age. (20)

In France, 129 convicted gays (21)(average age 34 years) said they had had sexual contact with a total of 11,007 boys (an average of 85 different boys per man). Abel et al reported similarly that men who molested girls outside their family had averaged 20 victims each; those who molested boys averaged 150 victims each. (22)


Second, anybody who makes the argument that the Boy Scouts of America is not a private organization is ignorant. Our government has helped the BSA with resources because our nation views the BSA as valuable to our culture. Just because the government gives to the BSA, does not mean the BSA has to answer to big government. Your version of government sounds more like the Mafia.

From the Supreme Court Ruling- Petitioners are the Boy Scouts of America and the Monmouth Council, a division of the Boy Scouts of America (collectively, Boy Scouts). The Boy Scouts is a private, not-for-profit organization engaged in instilling its system of values in young people. The Boy Scouts asserts that homosexual conduct is inconsistent with the values it seeks to instill. Respondent is James Dale, a former Eagle Scout whose adult membership in the Boy Scouts was revoked when the Boy Scouts learned that he is an avowed homosexual and gay rights activist. The New Jersey Supreme Court held that New Jersey’s public accommodations law requires that the Boy Scouts admit Dale. This case presents the question whether applying New Jersey’s public accommodations law in this way violates the Boy Scouts’ First Amendment right of expressive association. We hold that it does.

Do your homework before you debate a subject. You have already lost, and the parents have won.

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And at one time in our nation's less than shining history, the majority of the population believed that it was risky to allow black men and white women to have any kind of contact with one another. The racist white male population was convinced that all blacks were simple-minded horny animals obsessed with possessing a white woman. Fortunately today's majority (although unfortunately not everyone) has come to their senses and realized that black men aren't all rapists. But you come in here and insinuate that all gay men are bent on sodomizing little boys and that all straight males are doomed to pull a DeShawn Stevenson. Yet you and Kagy can't see the analogy??? Who's stupid now???

2 outdated studies that were done in a time when the AMA and the DSM considered homosexuality to be pathological. No bias there (snicker). BTW Have you bothered to look at the statistics for straight person who have had sexual relations with minors??? You have nothing here.

And in Bangcock the number of straight men who use underage prostitutes is in the thousands. Yet we still allow straight males to teach our children in the schools.

$5 million taxpayers dollars helped fund this year's BSA Jamboree. The Department of the Interior helped educate the scouts on tourt fishing, this despite an executive order prohibiting any discrimination in federal education. And last time I checked, it is perfectly commonplace for the receiver of funds to meet the demands of the giver of the funds. Banks do it, charities do it, hell, most of our parents did it. That's not big government - that's business and life.

And just because our Supreme Court bought the private organization BS doesn't mean jack ****. The Supreme Court also once said that Dred Scott wasn't a man and that segregation was okay as long as things were "separate but equal." (thank god for Thurgood Marshall and his inability to accept the Supreme Court's previous rulings). Furthermore, our court is filled with such stellar visionaries as CJ Rehnquist (put there by Nixon as a thank you for creating the laws that allowed him to wiretap the phones of anyone who happened to disagree with Tricky Dick), Thomas (lowest ABA rating ever for a federal judge nominee) and my personal favorite, Scalia (who claims to be able to determine the intentions of the 55 writers of the Constitution even though 55 men rarely have the same intention and the fact that all of them died more than a century before Scalia was born). Sorry, you are again wrong.

I feel bad for you really. Jumping everytime someone says boo, seeing evil in everything you don't understand - you must have had a terrible childhood.



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Rodney, I do want to extend the olive branch. Though I obviously disagree with you on this issue, perhaps you can teach me something sometime later. I've been in discussions in which I wholeheartedly disagreed w/ a poster and learned something from that poster on subsequent days (i.e. Roxran).

Welcome to the board, btw.

You'll find this board to be amazing. subtomic, Desert Scar, mrpaige, Newbiehad, PRM, Jeff, DREAMer, RR, haven, mc mark, outlaw, etc. are just a few of the great posters on this board... and you had the opportunity to discuss a serious issue with them. It's quite a treat to be honest.

Thanks Clutch, everyone.

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If he dies, he dies: Utah's Andre HarryBinko, after knocking down the Cavaliers Trajan Langdon.

 

Sure, let the teaching begin.

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I think the disallowal of homosexual men to be scout leaders has less to with them as people and more to do with their sexual preference. Are heterosexual men allowed to be troop leaders for the girl scouts? Are heterosexual boys and girls allowed to change and shower together? Heck, do grown men and women share bathrooms?

Ask yourself why kids of different genders are not allowed to change clothes together in the same locker room. It's not because people think there will be some massive orgy at the drop of a hat. It's more that the opportunity for inproprieties increases.

If I had a daughter, I would definitely not want boys to be changing or otherwise gettin' nekkid around her. If I had a son, it wouldn't be exactly the same. But I'd feel the same sort of rage and violation if he were molested or propositioned by a homosexual male, as if my daughter were by a heterosexual male. (the same goes for women)

It's not discriminating against gays to not let them be scout masters, it's just holding them to the same societal standards we live by in America.

I don't think gays are sexual nuts, or super-promiscuous. I just think a gay person should live by the same standards as a straight person.

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outlaw,

"Breeders" doesn't bother me. But, I'm sure it would matter how a person said it and in what context.

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DREAMer's Rocket Page