Yeah, and? Your point is? That JVG, that hasn't won a championship (and wont) because he hasn't done it already? Do you like to point out the obvious, AFTER the FACT! "Phil is a great coach because he's already proved it!" "Brown is a great coach because he's already proved it" Duh! "JVG is NOT a great coach because he hasn't proved it!" Duh! I'm waiting for you to make a silly statement like, "If Phil would have coached the Bulls in 1984-85, they would have won a championship (Completely overlooking Jordan's rookie status, team talent level, and opposition in the league at the time).
And the "just-distbanded" Lakers did NOT win a championship WITH Phil Jackson. It goes both ways. And please don't say, "But he already won six titles..." That's would be just more obvious, *after the fact* statements.
I never said "JVG won't win a championship because he hasn't done it already." I never even implied that. I don't think JVG will win a championship because I think his offense limits any squad he is coaching. I also think a proven winner is better than someone who hasn't done it. I took Phil Jackson last year, although I thought the coaching was fairly close. If Les believes in the talent assembled, he should get the best possible coach. The better man is available. Even if you believe JVG is Jackson's equal, nine NBA championships is infinitely better than zero.
As many of you know, the Mavericks have about 10 coaches. Do you know the reason why? Mark Cuban says that his head coach is to busy to teach players how to play. In fact the entire "regular" coaching staff has to many duties to teach something players should know by the time they get to the pros. That is what the extra coaches on the Mavs are for, to do the extra work of developing players.
Phil Jackson couldn't win a championship with 4 players that are top 5 in their position of all time.
True... but how many of those were playing like "top 5" players of their respective position last year? Phil Jackson isn't a great coach because he can teach... he's great because he can convince players to play together, and do things they don't want to. Could anyone have kept a team with Kobe and Shaq harmonious as well as Phil Jackson? And how about a team with Dennis Rodman on it when he went completely schizophrenic? Red Auerbach routinely discredits Phil Jackson's championships because he pretty much accomplished this feat with ready made superstars. I want the Rockets to win. In fact, I want a dynasty like the Bulls, Lakers, Celtics. I want the Rockets to be hated by everyone because they dominated for a span of 10 years. But, I only see this happening if we invest in player development instead of the quick fix, i.e. when the Lakers brought in Karl and Gary... and when the Rockets gave up Sammy and Horry for Barkley... then with Pippen.
Players matter... Yes, JVG is more strict. But he not as bad as a "Mike Fratello" offense. JVG offense is more balanced than Fratello's. But, the players you have matter.... Even Phil Jackson's offense would struggle with his current team. Shaq and Kobe offense was kinda stagnate at times. It wasn't a high-powered offense. It wasn't fast-break. Not like the Bulls were. LA was an post-offense (Shaq oriented). Now, Phil with the Bulls was different. One, he had Jordan: the best offensive scorer ever (save Wilt). Two, he had a small forward that could run the floor like a deer: Pippen. Rudy had Hakeem (older) AND Francis/Mobley. Yet, his offense was still unorganized. So, I do blame his lack of creativity for his bad offense. The Francis/Mobley offense might have been "fun" to watch sometimes. But it was predictable. He basically just let them run ISO/clear-outs (original? Not!). Now, for JVG to have a "better" offense, you have to have player(s) that CAN run it (with few mistakes). Well, guess what? We had a dumb PG named Francis that couldn't limit turnovers to save his life. So, JVG was between a rock and a hard place. He was limited by mainly his PG's inability to solidify the team; regardless of the individual ability of Francis. Want more proof? Take Pat Riley in LA with Magic, Worthy, Green, Cooper, Kareem...the offense was fast-paced and high-scoring. Of course, the players have a lot to do with this. Just look at Riley's team in Miami! It was a defensive team. Mourning and Hardaway was their best offensive options. That's not what I call an "offensive juggernaut." So, Riley was know as a "defensive coach' in Miami (and NY to a lesser extent) only because of the players he had. Yes, he taught "defense" just like JVG. But having the right offensive players helps! Just like he did in LA. The team McGrady/Yao/JJ is better than JVG's NY team AND Riley's Miami team, offensively. Want more proof? Wait until the season starts. That will be the all the proof I need. P.S. Sometimes I get the feeling that you need someone to blame for our "bad offense" for the last few years. Well, the first person you need to blame is Francis. Not JVG. Francis went through TWO coaches and he didn't show much improvement in his competence. Did you notice that? I mean, for the life of me, I can't understand why you can't see this! What? Do you think we should have gotten Phil Jackson and have him coach Francis? Like that would have solved the "Francis turnover problem." Yeah, right. Phil would have traded Francis too; sooner or later.
I think Phil did a pretty good job last year considering his star guard was being prosecuted for rape, his star center was overweight, and his point guard was a malcontent. If Karl Malone doesn't get injured they very well could have won the championship this past season.
I don't agree with that at all. No matter how you look at it you can't put a bunch of egos like that on a team and expect to win. Just look at our Olypmic team. If someone is not willing to step down from their ego trip and decide that i just need to play ball like Payton did then there is no chance they will work well together and they won't get anywhere. Malone did a decent job of knowing his role but payton did not. he was whinning on the time about playing time instead of making due with what he did get. He is not the same anymore and he needs to realize that. The boy god used by every point guard through the playoffs and he has the nerve to say anything. Regardless no matter how you look at it the Lakers would not have won the championship this year. They barely made it past the good teams thanks to some last minute heroics. but that is how it goes and they got to where they got. The lakers just basically gave us a preview of the olympics: A group of superstars on a team doesn't beat a REAL TEAM of players that know there roles and play together.
So what do you disagree with? I agree it wasn't an easy team to coach so Phil did a good job. You don't think they could have won if Malone was healthy?
I think that Stack24 and you are debating TWO DIFFERENT issues. pgabriel -> 1) Yes, Phil did a relatively good job given the circumstances (Kobe trial, egos, age, "too many leaders" etc...) Stack24 -> 2) And Yes, having too many "leaders" on ONE team can cause problems regarding "team" play.
Why don't you give some proof that JVG ever ran a great offense. Francis and Mobley averaged 97 points a game in 00-01 so they have ran good offenses. Where's JVG's great offensive teams?
To be honest i don't think even with a healthy Malone the Lakers would have won. Detroit really came out and showed the can play together and really ran the Lakers into the ground. There was too much individual play from the team and they had no answer for Detroits D. They might have won a couple games but they still would not have beat the Pistons in my opinion. One knock i have on Phil is that i don't think he is ever willing to coach a team that doesn't have the pieces there in way. He had MJ he had Kobe and Shaq. Evertime it's about to go into rebuilding he kind of just retires. Then will come back when the time is right with another team. he is really worried too much about his legacy and will not risk it to have a crappy record with a developing team. I don't think he has really developed anyone either to be honest. I don't look at Phil Jackson as a good Head Coach to be honest with you.
Yes, but JVG got them to 'pass the ball earlier in the offense'. This is all that matters. Actual results don't matter, 'passing earlier' matters, and 'passing to (a better) Yao more' matters. Playing better defense also matters, even if you score so much less that it completely negates the positive of the improved defense.
Hakeem's last year (10ppg)? Yes, and before that with Drexler/Barkey they were around 99/100ppg. Guess what? Check Rudy/Francis/Mobley's team after Hakeem/Bullard left (our vets). It dropped to 92ppg. Like I said....players matter. By the way... I never said JVG ran "great offense." I said balanced offense/defense (requires competent players). And it's nowhere as predictable as Rudy's "offense" was. All I want from JVG is 94ppg (higher than Rudy averaged with a exclusive Francis/Mobley team). Anything better is a bonus. But we'll see how JVG uses McGrady/Yao/JJ. JVG's best year was 1995-96 when his NY team averaged 95.4ppg. Most of the time he was around 90ppg depending on his personnel. Note that Minnesota averages 95ppg last year (Flip Saunders); which no one seems to have a problem with. Just realize we're never going to achieve 100ppg like Dallas. You can forget about it (which they have a problem with defense). And since when does "great offense" mean JUST ppg? How about things like low-turnovers, FG%, multiple plays (not just ISOs), structured offense mixed with some isos? Pass accuracy and timing? How about implementing solid execution of the pick and roll? Or how about turn-over free fast-break executions (a lot better than we've done under the Francis era)? This is where the players you HAVE make a big difference! These factors matter. And not just ONE or TWO players. But the WHOLE TEAM! So, what you call a "good offense" just because Francis/Mobley ran a loose/unstructured free-style play doesn't mean that it's better than 94ppg with all the other things I mentioned above. That old type of "Francis offense" was too extreme; too free-style; too loose.
Be fair. Statistically, 2001-02 is an anomaly. Francis only played 57 games that season, half of those with migraines. 2000-01 97.2 2001-02 92.3 2002-03 93.8 2003-04 89.8 2004P 84.6
Yes, that's true...but I say that Francis is an anomaly himself. No coach could figure him out. Also, you say that "92.3" is an anomaly but "93.8" isn't? Really? That's a small anomaly. Did Francis have a migrain 2002-03 too? Why didn't it go back up to 97.2ppg? Rudy was still there. And no Hakeem to be found. If you take JVG strict style of ball + Francis what do you get? JVG tried it, and the guy's game suffered for it "statistically(16ppg last year)." But if you liked Francis's iso-style of ball follow Francis to Orlando and root for him there. We all know that Rudy let the players run free (which might have helped Francis's game statically). This may work with veterans like Barkley, Drexler and Hakeem. But not with the *anomaly* called Francis. Let me ask you this...What do you think thav JVG would average if he had Drexler, Barkley and Hakeem? 89ppg? Yeah right. I'd say 96-97ppg. A little better than what he had in NY. Again, players matter. Yes, so does the coach. But JVG is not as bad as you make it out to be. Not since JVG-Francis ball is fresh in our minds (yuk). I mean, you will live and die with "100 or bust." I can't believe you are worried about a 1.5-2.0 ppg difference like that's ALL that matters. Why don't we just wait and see what happens this season? Then, we can make a better assessment. Man! I wish the season would start!
Rudy T. did, and we "tossed him out like a bag of moldy tangerines" - don't remember where I heard that quote, but I think it was Weird Al in UHF
All that matters are CHAMPIONSHIPS! - I believe it was Pat Riley that once said, "Out rebound a team and you'll win 75% of the time, out score a team and you'll win 100% of the time."
