Nope, all I need is your posting history now. Spoiler Besides the questionable above, so... You fling stats against the wall, taking them in as gospel, basically, with no context. If you had taken many statistics classes, you would know that one has to eliminate as many variables as possible. Comparing Harden to Hakeem has many, many variables, which means to take stats with a grain of salt. And then you use one stat for your argument? One of these things is not like the other. You take stats as the truth so convincingly that you argue that David Lee and Scola are not atrocious defenders. [Lee] [Scola] [Cyberx Thread] Oh we have figured that out already. Hmmm, 20 years, 2015... 1995... but you have watched the '86 finals? Hmmm.... I believe this is one of my points. He is using his whole argument based on one offensive statistic. I am trying to say it goes beyond that. We are on the same page here. Sorry, I'm done with this thread now.
Since you've taken to ad hom arguments and somehow taken offense to what I said, in typical angry internet fashion (which thankfully most CFers avoid), let me clarify and then I too will be done with this thread and your nonsense. First, anything I said about the pneumothorax held true. It didn't hold him out of the playoffs and to say that it affected his conditioning would be false, as it was his lack of awareness on offense that limited his effectiveness. So, you don't really have a cogent counter argument but just vomited back some of my old posts as if that would somehow discredit what I said. Second, peroneal nerve injuries are rare and unpredictable. I was an NBA fan in the 80's but didn't follow the sport seriously until a few years later, so I wasn't aware of what a peroneal injury was when I started watching the Rockets. I suspect you still aren't or can't understand why the recovery isn't predictable. I also admitted my mistake that I missed AK's peroneal nerve injury, which you failed to vomit back. Regarding African diet, I can pretty much guarantee you have no expertise here, and there is a lot of controversy on how calcium intake affects bone density. African Americans and Africans have some of the lowest rates of osteoporosis despite wild variations in calcium intake. Take this stat: "For example, South African blacks had a very low average daily calcium intake—only 196 milligrams—yet their a fracture incidence was only 6.8 per 100,000 person-years, far below that of either black or white Americans, whose incidence rates were 60.4 and 118.3 per 100,000 person-years, respectively." So for you to question my statement without any kind of counter argument or intelligence in that arena shows that you really have no cogent statement to make other than to vomit back what I said out of context and use it in a very poor ad hom attack. Next, DBPM isn't a catch-all defensive metric. It doesn't take into account spatial metrics like staying in front of your defender or help defense or opponent shot effectiveness/availability. It also incorporates rebounding, which is in the favor of Lee and Scola who at a glance have trouble staying in front of their defender but are excellent rebounders. However, having a neutral to positive DBPM should raise red flags about whether a player is truly a terrible defender. Take Harden in 2013-4, where his DBPM was in the pits and it was clear from the eye test (and some of the neat spatial stuff that Kirk Goldberry put on Grantland regarding opponent shot frequency and effectiveness) that Harden did not play good defense that year. I'm not aware of a way to access Scola or Lee's spatial data without being a media member but I suspect that that they will bear out that neither is an elite defender when it comes to reducing shot frequency or effectiveness or staying in front but that neither of them are complete traffic cones either, which was the general consensus in both of thos threads. With Scola it's clear that where he struggles is guarding mobile stretch 4's, but he does much better at back-to-the-basket bigs. I suspect that you have little to back any claims otherwise except your "expertise." Hakeem is my favorite player. I agree that comparing the two using metrics from two eras is difficult due to rule changes. It also should highlight that Jordan was able to exceed Harden's efficiency on multiple seasons while facing much more lax officiating on defenders. So you can't transplant Harden into that era and expect the same efficiency. It also stands that the post-up is generally not a very efficient play except as a change of pace for most bigs. That Hakeem could make that his bread and butter and achieve that high level of efficiency speaks to his mastery of the post up. But you and a lot of others are selling Harden short on what he achieved last year. He could score almost anywhere at will and with efficiency. Again, playoff Hakeem was not a myth like playoff Rondo, and his playoff metrics are off the charts on both ends of the court. Harden has yet to achieve that, and he has only been that masterful for a single year. But he has the potential to be one of the best offensive 2 guards in league history, and we should take some pride in that as long as he's a Rocket.
The kids replying in this thread that Harden is better are so clueless its laughable. Either that or my sarcasm meter isn't working. Hakeem went toe to toe with a prime Shaq and won. Shaq said himself that Hakeem was the only big to ever thoroughly school him. He did the same to Ewing and Robinson too. Harden is good but let's get real.
I wasn't questioning your medical knowledge. I believe you, and am pretty sure I repped you as well back then with regards to what you are saying. I should have put some more explanation. I hope people do the same for me as well. There are some other inconsistencies. Never mind; moot point. I am reaching. Harden was not masterful in the playoffs. Well, agree to disagree. I think I erred in my actions and decisions. Spoiler Accept?
If harden leads us to 3 chips and wins 2 mvps is he better then dream? Dream is the goat and will always be, but harden has a chance to go down as a top 2-5 sg of all time. His season last year was better then any season kobe Bryant ever had from an efficiency standpoint. you guys do realize harden would be a lot better on defense if he was aloud to hand check right? Dudes the strongest 2 guard i have ever seen and is pretty quick also. If he could put his hand on you no guard would go anywhere.
hakeem was more reliable on the offensive end, not to mention he would get doubled and tripled at times because of his presence in the post. harden is a very gifted offensive player, and we are still seeing him come into his own, and we see flashes of brilliant play. but he still needs to become the leader of the team, there is something about the presence of great players like hakeem on the court that harden doesnt have yet IMO. i dunno why but that game 6 with harden sitting on the bench sticks out to me...
A lot of Harden's scoring comes from his ability to draw fouls from the stricter rules on defense. He couldn't do that stuff in the 80's and 90's. He also doesn't have that elite athleticism like Jordan, Drexler. He can't get past some of the better defenders today without screens. He also has little playoff resume. He also conserves energy by playing lackluster defense too often. So Dream by a mile for me.
Dream was more fluid IMO. Harden while efficient isn't the most aesthetically pleasing game. Dream was poetry in motion.
(Hakeem as the offensive focal point) + (4 relatively good players, but not all stars) = Championship (Harden as the offensive focal point) + (4 relatively good players, but not all stars) = ????? ... maybe playoffs with an early round exit? I gotta go with Hakeem. His arsenal was incredible with nearly unstoppable post moves and an accurate shooting range out to 18-20 feet. He also was much more clutch, especially in the playoffs.
I love Hakeem as much as the next poster here, but a reasonable party could throw Kareem into the discussion for GOAT post game. His sky hook (much like Hakeem's fadeaway and shakes) was unstoppable $$$. To the OP, Hakeem was better as of now. Harden is very special though. There is no reason that he cannot become the better offensive player in time.
<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">.<a href="https://twitter.com/DR34M">@DR34M</a> delivered an incredible performance in a Double-OT classic against Seattle- tune in to NBA TV right now! <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/TBT?src=hash">#TBT</a> <a href="http://t.co/HyNngQFXI5">pic.twitter.com/HyNngQFXI5</a></p>— NBA TV (@NBATV) <a href="https://twitter.com/NBATV/status/626761864433803264">July 30, 2015</a></blockquote> <script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script> <blockquote class="twitter-tweet" lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">.<a href="https://twitter.com/DR34M">@DR34M</a> dominates and knocks the Suns out of the Playoffs- tune in to NBA TV right now! <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/TBT?src=hash">#TBT</a> <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/BWBAfrica?src=hash">#BWBAfrica</a> <a href="http://t.co/WPgzlOnAB9">pic.twitter.com/WPgzlOnAB9</a></p>— NBA TV (@NBATV) <a href="https://twitter.com/NBATV/status/626799458165112838">July 30, 2015</a></blockquote> <script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script> <blockquote class="twitter-tweet" lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Relive <a href="https://twitter.com/DR34M">@DR34M</a>'s big performance as the <a href="https://twitter.com/HoustonRockets">@HoustonRockets</a> finished off the Knicks on NBA TV right now <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/TBT?src=hash">#TBT</a> <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/BWBAfrica?src=hash">#BWBAfrica</a> <a href="http://t.co/h11vXFedcH">pic.twitter.com/h11vXFedcH</a></p>— NBA TV (@NBATV) <a href="https://twitter.com/NBATV/status/626859929748512773">July 30, 2015</a></blockquote> <script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script> <blockquote class="twitter-tweet" lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">.<a href="https://twitter.com/DR34M">@DR34M</a> leads the <a href="https://twitter.com/HoustonRockets">@HoustonRockets</a> to their second straight NBA title- tune in to NBA TV right now! <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/TBT?src=hash">#TBT</a> <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/BWBAfrica?src=hash">#BWBAfrica</a> <a href="http://t.co/ZNBpqu3jug">pic.twitter.com/ZNBpqu3jug</a></p>— NBA TV (@NBATV) <a href="https://twitter.com/NBATV/status/626890040438837248">July 30, 2015</a></blockquote> <script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>
Just imagine Hakeem not putting the defensive effort in and "fock-assing" on strictly offense. Dude was already unstoppable but would have been like Superman when it came to offense. Hell, he could have taken all the players and his own team on!
Hakeem was far more reliable with a more consistent mid-range shot, later in his career. Early in his career, he was a handful with his ability to rebound offensively. He was an outstanding ball-handler for a 4 or 5 as well. Granted he never really played the 4 position, but he kind of took on that role a bit when he was with Ralph Samson. I also remember when he was a one-man gang against the Jazz in the playoffs, but the rest of the team couldn't step it up. He was still scoring around 35 a game. There were teams like the Sonics that could stop him, and it would even affect his defense at times, but we've seen Harden struggle a bit against long, athletic guys. Hakeem's consistency, gives him the edge over Harden.
