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Harden vs Doncic: An Interesting Observation

Discussion in 'Houston Rockets: Game Action & Roster Moves' started by Spacemoth, Dec 2, 2019.

  1. MorningZippo

    MorningZippo Member

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    The majority of NBA fans (60%) are actually minorities, and jersey sales per unit of production are SIGNIFICANTLY higher for black players than for any other race.

    There’s definitely a race issue among NBA fans, and you’re a perfect example of the racism that’s rampant in the league today. Goran, Ilyasova, and Mirotic are great players, and would be perfect fits for our roster. You just don’t like white players.
     
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  2. topfive

    topfive CF OG

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    Here's an interesting video that attempts to decide whether Luka is having the best under-21 year ever in the NBA.



    What I find MOST interesting about it, though, is that you can imagine Harden doing the exact same thing on literally every single play they show. Scoring, passing, handle, hitting open teammates, stepbacks, P&R, etc. Even his deceleration is Hardenesque. Luka hasn't just modeled his game after Harden, he's become Harden, to some extent. Of course, he's Harden Lite™ at this point, but he's only 20.
     
  3. bro2044

    bro2044 Member

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    I live in Dallas (well, Irving) now and watch both consistently. Remarkably similar, although I like how Luka moves the ball more. Harden is more of a threat, but Doncic works a little better within the team framework.

    I will say anyone saying Doncic doesnt hunt for fouls is blind. It seems like once a game he does the fake J, defender jumps, and LD leaps completely forward into the defender for the whistle.

    I hate that play, always have. Harden stopped that crap 4-5yrs ago, and you dont see it as much anymore, which makes it stand out when Luka pulls it. It still gets a whistle, but it's cheap af, and should be an offensive foul honestly.
     
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  4. Spacemoth

    Spacemoth Contributing Member

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    Harden "Lite" you say...

    Reason 3 that I didn't credit enough: there's just a lot of people in the media who have stronger ties to Dallas than Houston. And in their perspective, Houston can go **** itself. Of course, this ties a little bit into my reason 2 as well in the original post, as to why people prefer Dallas over Houston. I've had people tell me, "I can't quite put my finger on it...but the vibe of Dallas just meshes better with me." Don't worry chump, we know what you're saying here.
     
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  5. Stephen_A

    Stephen_A Member

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    Oh? Serious questions. Where did you get those statistics from? Can you define racism for me? Higher jersey sales for black players? Of course the league is majority blacks and most of the players dominating the league is black. What’s your point? What does it have to do with Doncic and the hype surrounding him from the media and fans most of whom are white? Some of the same folks hyping up Doncic advocated a starting lineup of dragic and mirotic in the past lol so is there a correlation? If you read any of my posts I praised the kid saying no doubt he’s talented but the way some of the posters on this board described adjectives and superlatives and comparisons to harden etc is ludicrous for a guy who has yet to win a playoff game but we demonize a player of our own who’s won multiple playoff series and put up historic numbers. The issue is the overhyping and overvaluation of players of European descent or “white”. Alex Caruso has a mural and is glorified in LA with a huge fan base especially on social media. For what? For being an average or ok bench guy? Does race have anything to do with it? You tell me. Lastly Where in my statement did I say I judge Doncic differently or dislike white players? Please. This is all your perception buddy. Peace!
     
    #45 Stephen_A, Dec 3, 2019
    Last edited: Dec 3, 2019
  6. HP3

    HP3 Member

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    Luka is so much more like Harden dude, his skill set of deceleration is literally Hardens.
     
  7. bmelo

    bmelo Member

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    He has similiar tools but uses them differently
     
  8. HP3

    HP3 Member

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    The only thing I will contest here is that Donic less prone to seek contact, he seeks a ton of it. He is THIRD in the league in Fts after Giannis and Harden. As a second year player. I donno if people will hate him, but he will be drawing the same amount of fouls as Harden sooner than later and he does a lot of it in the same manner as Harden.
     
  9. MorningZippo

    MorningZippo Member

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    Dude, did you even read anything I wrote? Black players, per unit of production, have higher Jersey Sales than any other race.

    If player A is white and averages 10 points per game, and player B is black and averages 10 points a game, they should have about the same jersey sales, right?

    Wrong. The black player, on average, will have 60%(!) higher sales. That’s a staggeringly high number, and is very much indicative of systemic racism in the fan base of the NBA.

    What this means is that black players are more popular than other players for reasons unrelated to basketball. How do you explain that?

    Being white works against you when you’re an NBA player in terms of how popular you are, or how good people perceive you to be. If you have actual evidence that refutes that, I’m all ears.
     
  10. HP3

    HP3 Member

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    He has the SAME tool, how he uses it is up to your interpretation I guess. His passing is different...I guess. But his umm "attitude" towards defense doesnt mean anything, hes a worse defender than Harden.
     
  11. Deuce

    Deuce Context & Nuance

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    James Harden plays #VillainBall
    Luka plays #VirtuousBall
     
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  12. Deuce

    Deuce Context & Nuance

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    Would you attribute that to Carlisle having a better framework for HIS offense versus MDA?
     
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  13. bmelo

    bmelo Member

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    I would say Harden is better post defender and Luka is better team defender and rebounder. You right about deceleration and strenght style though. They are both just very skilled and approach the game based on their crafitness rather than speed but i would say they play differently
     
  14. bmelo

    bmelo Member

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    At this point its hard to tell if Harden plays DAntoni ball or if Dantonii schemes Harden ball
     
  15. HP3

    HP3 Member

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    Steve Nash, Dirk and Larry Bird def did not have that problem. Donic will also def not have that problem. And your whole example of a two player's averaging 10 points per game doesnt work bro, there are more to jersey sales than that.
     
  16. HP3

    HP3 Member

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    I don't really see much of a diffrence tbh, Luka runs more pick and rolls than Harden I guess. Luka isnt a better team defender though? RAPTOR metric actually has Harden as a more positive defender than Luka. I've seen the dude play....I mean there is nothing there to suggest his defense is any better than Harden's. He might be a better defender later on but as of right now I dont see it.
     
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  17. topfive

    topfive CF OG

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    That's largely a by-product of the very different systems employed by the two teams, isn't it? MDA's ISO-heavy offense says the ball will stick more with Harden than it will with Luka in Carlisle's more team-oriented offense.
     
  18. durvasa

    durvasa Contributing Member

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    I mean, you just said he's behind Harden. And the measure I'd look at is percentage of true shooting attempts that come from the free throw line, which I'll label as FTA%

    Code:
    FTA% ~=  0.44 * FTA / [FGA + 0.44*FTA]
    
    Here, I plot it just to illustrate the difference:

    [​IMG]

    Yes, Doncic does do a lot of his damage from the free throw line, but Harden's FTA% has been higher over his career, even going back to early in his career. Interestingly, it actually dipped a bit last year, the only time since his rookie season that his FTA% was (slightly) less than what Doncic is currently at this season.
     
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  19. Nook

    Nook Member

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    If James Harden happened to play for the Lakers he would be the uncontested best player in the NBA.

    I will say this, while Harden is someone that a lot of people take digs at, I have heard over the last 12 months more people in position to judge say that Harden is the best. Usually his flaws are pointed out and then they resign to the fact he is the best.
     
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  20. Nook

    Nook Member

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    Sorry I don't see this.

    Harden isn't really like Kobe in philosophy. Harden has averaged as high as 12 assists a game and is still getting 8 assists while averaging 39 points a game. While the first thing that pops out about Harden is that he has averaged 30 points a game over the last 8 years, he also is a very good and willing passer and solid rebounder.
     

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