What defines great defense? Steals? The Iverson was a great defender. Blocks? Then why didn’t Camby ever win defensive player of the year? Is Durant actually better than Harden defensively? Or is it because he is freakishly long?
I can't imagine how much bashing Harden would get if he only averaged 19ppg for the entire playoffs lol.
...And disappeared in the Finals. Comparing the Harden in OKC versus our Harden is completely different. Teams use their best defenders against Durant and Westbrook. They're young anyway, why don't we ask again in a few years.
and george didn't even get to the finals.. and george wasn't the number 1 option offensively.. and he was playing in the east tell me did you watch all of OKC's playoff games before the finals? west conference teams tried their best stopping Harden
How about steals and blocks per 36min? Since Harden plays a lot more minutes than defensive specialists like Tony Allen (he also plays 2.5mpg more than PG), he's bound to have higher statistics -- not that steals and blocks are accurate measurements of defense anyways (JKidd and Lin tied for 11th last year in steals with 1.6, and we know how suspect 40yr old Kidd and Lin were on defense). This thread was really only created because people are seeing Harden squander some of his potential by not going all out on defense. Sure, he's capable of playing elite defense occasionally (especially on ball defense), but he's also a lazy team defender who ball watches and plays the passing lanes too aggressively thus being out of position much of the time. He was known as a great defender at OKC, yet he seems to have left that label back in Oklahoma. You can argue that too many minutes played, too much offensive burden, injuries, etc. etc. affect his ability to play defense, but if he wants to become a true transcendent superstar, he needs to be an elite two-way player in spite of all that circumstance. Does he want to become a superstar a la MJ/Kobe/Lebron? Or does he want to become a superstar a la Melo/TMac? Paul George seems headed towards the former, while Harden seems headed towards the latter. Before Harden sat out with injuries, his effort on defense seemed to be improving. We can only hope his effort continues to improve when he gets back.
agree.. i just hate it when LOFs or haters simply generalized Harden as a lazy defender or doesn't defend.. all Rockets players still have to put more work on their team defense.. also i want to add, PG has been playing with the Pacers for how may years now compared to Harden who has just 1 full year and now 10 games with a new Center and PF PG does not have as big as an offensive load as Harden and those 4 guys he plays with plays solid defense plus he's playing in the East
Harden has already been a scrub on the defensive end last year and it may indeed seem bewildering that his matador defense is only now being widely noticed and used to bash him. But it is not. Last season ended with old man Kobe suffering a nearly career ending achille injury (can potentially also end the career of numerous kobetards) and DWhistle getting embarassed in the finals because of his irremediably damaged knees (hence kickstarting the annual speculation that Wade is done). Then a funny thing happened during the summer: Harden got overrated. This was aided in no small measure by the fact that no basketball was being played and Durant indirectly dissing James and the Heat by asserting that Harden is better than Wade. The stupide journos then went to work and, little by little, the national narrative about Harden, the SG position and the grading of stars was changed. Voila! Just like that Harden was billed as a superstar about to take a loaded team to the finals. Eventually, Harden went into nationally braodcasted games at the height of his "best SG in the game" hype only to be exposed by.....JJ Reddick and Steve Blake. It will take a while for his stock to climb up again after being so badly lit up by some relatively random scrubs while being so heavily scrutinised. We can only hope that he will view this chastisement as a challenge to improve his defense (since he can't really get any worse, else he will have to be digging).
If that's true then this debate isn't worth having. Harden detractors aren't going to suddenly change their opinions no matter what facts are presented.
So, Harden wasn't considered a star until during the off season? If you're saying his stock ROSE in the off season that's one thing. I'd probably agree with that. But his play last year, at least to me, showed that he's not just a 6th man, instant offense guy. He has the chance to be one of the best players in the league. Granted I don't think he's there yet.
Most of us have never seen more than a handful of other teams' games so and talking based on box score statistics or whatever the commentators on ESPN are telling us. Besides that point, we know Howard and Asik are elite defenders. How many defensive mistakes do they erase? If Howard and Asik can truly just realize they've already been paid and not whine about minutes, individual defense becomes somewhat moot.
He was and remains a star. A flawed star but still a star player that can score efficiently. But he has never been at any point a superstar. He will reach this level only if he leads by example on D and can expand his skillsets so that he does not become ineffective if the refs swallow their whistles or teams take away the 3pt shot.
LOF logic: Harden for Danny Green, because Lin will be able to run the team with a shooter like Green and the team does not need Harden. ...but Spurs win 5 chips in a row
Clearly you did not watch the rockets or the nba last yr? Otherwise you wouldn't just be talking out of your ass. Iv been a season ticket holder since the first yr at Toyota center and I can say without a doubt that James harden in the most talented basketball player we've had on the team since Hakeem. Tmac was a stud but James harden has the never say die I'm Better than you attitude. I wish I could find the article but Kobe was asked last offseason who the most competitive guys in the nba were? Sure enough our boy harden was on his short list of players he says want it bad as him. James harden still has a lot to prove but to say he isn't a superstar when he's universally recognized by the 2 best players in the world is just silly (Lebron, Durant) any player at 24 has holes in their game I can promise you so does PG. PG plays on a team that's been together and in the playoffs 2 yrs in a row and went deep on a stacked team. If you don't think PG defense is greatly effected by having chemistry and continuity for a couple yrs. give harden the same personnel and coach as PG has and I'm sure it would be similar results. They fact is harden is light years away on offense that only like 2 players in the nba are better than him at. Some of you in this thread act like harden is a scrub and holding this team back. That's absolutely crazy talk, it's rare to find players that can do what harden does and even harder to find them at the age of 23. Give the guy some time to grow and Improve his game. PG is healthy and ballin let harden get healthy and I gaurentee he balls harden lol
I was willing to read and learn but then you just had to out yourself as a Harden stan. Superstars? James, Durant and CP3 (with possibly Love and George in the near future). Truly transformational type of players that can change a team's fortunes completely by themselves. Harden meanwhile spurred the Rockets to make the gigantic leap from 9th to 8th, in a season where Omer Asik was an equally decisive factor as defensive anchor. Melo is a far better scorer than Harden is and yet, apart from the ever deluded star*****ed knicks fans, no one consider him as a superstar and for good reasons.
Couldn't agree more. At this point, I really have no idea who's to blame for that, coaches or players? Common sense would say there's no way NBA level coaches wouldn't point that out and teach the fundamentals of team defense, and that players on court are responsible for their play. Then again, isn't it the coaches' responsibilities to ensure their players are playing fundamentally sound basketball? I don't know. Probably equal blame for both the coaches and players. Yet there are still many threads lamenting Howard for leaving his position to play help defense and giving up offensive boards in the process.
So I guess this is the unofficial "LOF bashing Harden" thread now. Y'all do realize that Paul George takes MORE shots than Harden.. in a much slower paced offense no less.
Paul George now has a near 60% TS @ a higher usage rate than Harden now. Still small sample size, but if he keeps this up, he'll be a two-way player and a legit superstar.
Did you just say Asik was just as responsible for last year's success as Harden? Did I read that correctly? Alright, I give. Where's the hidden camera? Where's Ashton? There's no way I'm not being recorded right now.
One thing to keep in mind is that George is currently hitting midrange jumpers better than Dirk Nowitzki. Pretty sure that's not going to hold.
