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Harden - Moving On vs. Holding On

Discussion in 'Houston Rockets: Game Action & Roster Moves' started by JayZ750, May 11, 2017.

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  1. Patience

    Patience Contributing Member

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    And to follow up on your post, the idea of trading Harden for Avery Bradley is every bit as idiotic as trading Hakeem for Rony Seikaly or Danny Manning.
     
    #121 Patience, May 12, 2017
    Rocket River likes this.
  2. saleem

    saleem Contributing Member

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    James Harden has to build on the good stuff, and we did see a fair amount of it. I'm afraid he will start drinking and go into depression ala Lawson. He needs to work on his mental and physical health, and keep on improving his game. He should talk with Kobe. This off-season is make or break for him.
     
    #122 saleem, May 12, 2017
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  3. hooroo

    hooroo Member

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    most guards decline when they hit 30. do you look at players like bonzi wells because of the body type to predict injuries and future form?

    his trade value is at the pinnacle of the peak right now. if the rockets can get the greek freak, then by all means. otherwise the rockets just need to retool.
     
    #123 hooroo, May 12, 2017
  4. J.R.

    J.R. Member

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    Not getting a star back in return. You're rebuilding.

    Kevin Pelton, February 2016:

    There's no single obvious trade fit for Harden, but the star-hungry Boston Celtics could offer All-Star Isaiah Thomas to replace his shot creation, cap relief with David Lee's expiring contract and perhaps one of the coming picks they're due from the Brooklyn Nets to give the Rockets a chance at another star.

    If Houston believes D'Angelo Russell has superstar potential, the Lakers would have to consider giving him up to get Harden, an L.A. native.

    And there are at least two lottery teams who seem hungry to get better now. The Denver Nuggets could build a package around Danilo Gallinari, Gary Harris and draft picks. Likewise, the Orlando Magic could offer Victor Oladipo, Aaron Gordon and picks.

    But none of those packages deliver the Rockets a surefire top-10 player, which is where Harden ranks at his best. Morey famously worked for years to acquire the picks and young players necessary to snag Harden from the Oklahoma City Thunder, the move that enabled Houston to sign Howard and build the team that reached last season's conference finals. Dealing Harden for anything less than another superstar could leave the Rockets back in a similar spot to before they got him.

    At the same time, no matter his offensive success, Harden simply isn't performing like a superstar or a top-10 player right now. If his current frustration isn't enough to get Harden to expend effort on defense, who's to say that he will be able to summon it up in the future?

    If he can't, Houston is better off grabbing value now while other teams believe they can get last season's version of Harden.
    ​
    Some of these aren't (super)stars (maybe all-stars)

    Deron Williams: traded for cash, Derrick Favors, Devin Harris, 2011 1st round pick(Enes Kanter) & 2013 1st round pick(Gorgui Dieng)

    Derrick Rose: traded with Justin Holiday & a 2017 2nd round pick for Jose Calderon, Jerian Grant and Robin Lopez

    Rajon Rondo: traded with Dwight Powell for Jae Crowder, Jameer Nelson, Brandan Wright, a 2016 1st round pick & a 2016 2nd round draft pick

    Chris Paul: traded for Al-Farouq Aminu, Eric Gordon, Chris Kaman and a 2012 1st round pick(Austin Rivers)

    Shaquille O'Neal: traded for Caron Butler, Brian Grant, Lamar Odom, a 2006 1st round pick(Jordan Farmar) & 2007 2nd round pick(Renaldas Seibutis)

    Tracy McGrady: traded with Reece Gaines, Juwan Howard and Tyronn Lue for Kelvin Cato, Steve Francis and Cuttino Mobley

    Kevin Love: traded for Anthony Bennett, Andrew Wiggins & a trade exception

    Joe Johnson: traded for Boris Diaw, a 2006 1st round pick(Rajon Rondo) & a 2008 1st round pick(Robin Lopez); traded for Jordan Farmar, Anthony Morrow, Johan Petro, DeShawn Stevenson, Jordan Williams, a 2013 1st round pick (Shane Larkin) & a 2017 2nd round pick

    Allen Iverson: traded for Andre Miller, Joe Smith, a 2007 1st round pick(Daequan Cook) and a 2007 1st round pick(Petteri Koponen); traded for Chauncey Billups, Antonio McDyess and Cheikh Samb

    Dwight Howard: traded with Earl Clark & Chris Duhon for Christian Eyenga, Josh McRoberts and a future 1st round draft pick (Got some other pieces in the 3-team trade)

    Pau Gasol: traded with with a 2010 2nd round draft pick(Devin Ebanks) for Kwame Brown, Javaris Crittenton, Marc Gasol, Aaron McKie, a 2008 1st round pick(Donte Greene) & a 2010 1st round pick

    Kevin Garnett: traded for Ryan Gomes, Gerald Green, Al Jefferson, Theo Ratliff, Sebastian Telfair, a 2009 1st round pick (Wayne Ellington) & a 2009 1st round pick(Jonny Flynn)

    Monta Ellis: traded with Kwame Brown and Ekpe Udoh for Andrew Bogut and Stephen Jackson

    DeMarcus Cousins: traded with Omri Casspi for Tyreke Evans, Langston Galloway, Buddy Hield, a 2017 1st round pick & a 2017 2nd round pick

    Vince Carter: traded for Alonzo Mourning, Aaron Williams, Eric Williams, a 2005 1st round pick(Joey Graham) & a 2006 1st round pick(Renaldo Balkman)

    Carmelo Anthony: traded with Renaldo Balkman, Chauncey Billups, Anthony Carter, Shelden Williams & a 2016 1st round pick (Jakob Poeltl) for Kosta Koufos, Wilson Chandler, Raymond Felton, Danilo Gallinari, Timofey Mozgov, cash, a 2012 2nd round pick(Quincy Miller), a 2013 2nd round pick(Romero Osby), a 2014 1st round pick(Dario Saric) & a 2016 1st round pick(Jamal Murray)

    Ray Allen: traded with Ronald Murray, Kevin Ollie & a 2003 1st round pick(Luke Ridnour) for Desmond Mason and Gary Payton; traded with Glen Davis to the Boston Celtics for Jeff Green, Wally Szczerbiak, Delonte West & a 2008 2nd round pick(Trent Plaisted)
     
    #124 J.R., May 12, 2017
  5. JayZ750

    JayZ750 Contributing Member

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    I think, perhaps because this is a Rockets board, perhaps - no certainly - because of the #8/#1 upset, Dirk has been undervalued as a player.

    At 27 Dirk led a team to the NBA Finals, and frankly, in the realm of biased ref'ing, while there are always missed calls or plays that are crazy, the 2 most clearly biased ref'ing I've seen in the last 20 years are Kings/Lakers 4th quarter game 6, and the Mavs-Heat series.

    In any case, Dirk had some bad playoff year(s) (eg losing to GSW), but generally was great in the playoffs. By 27, he was on his third playoff year with a PER of 24.8 or higher. Harden's done that once. He was not good defensively, but a better "scheme" defender than Harden. People called him soft, and he wasn't "hard" certainly, but bad rebounding Dirk had 8 straight years of double digit rebounding in the playoffs. He also moved the ball, with strong assist numbers as a big.

    Which people? His ankle was the main issue. He's clearly gotten better as an NBA player, but outside his ankle, Steph was a baller from day 1. The Warriors had a shot to trade him and knew what was up.

    But again, by all means, if the Rockets have a path to Warriors like dynastic talent across the board, I'd love to pursue that.

    Again, which people. Sour grapes people who were pissed he didn't come to their team. Everyone wanted Lebron

    Fair enough.

    I'm not in love with the narrative that they all got a ton better. Evolved I am good with. Championship Hakeem, who won the MVP, so obviously a great, high level player, wasn't meaningfully better than younger Hakeem who was a complete wrecking crew of a player. There weren't fundamental changes as much as evolution into doing things more conducive to winning.

    The Lakers maybe trading Kobe isn't exactly comparable. For one, he already had 3 rings. For two, they actually considered trading him, lol. For three, there was no Warriors team then.

    Anyway, I guess the question is does Harden need simple evolution, or more complete change? Increasingly to me, it seems to be the later.

    How do you get Harden to become even an average defender? How do you cut down his turnovers in half?

    While your examples are noteworthy, I think they are apples to oranges for the most part.
    Lebron? Generational talent. Obvious before rings, more obvious after. Had some closing issues in the past, but didn't repeatedly have "choke" type games in the playoffs.
    Steph? By all means, lay out a path for the Rockets to get that talent around Harden.
    Dirk? Completely underrated. Could/should have had a ring at 27 already. Just a matter of getting back to that.
    Hakeem? Notable, a pretty good comparison, but with a game that was without flaw and was truly just a matter of trust/selfishness

    Also, of note, outside of perhaps Hakeem, none of these guys had a Warriors-like dynasty to get through. And with Hakeem.. well as dynastic as the Bulls were, even then the Rockets always played them close, as opposed to getting dominated by the Warriors for example as current Rockets have done. There were tons of great teams than... though the Bulls ultimately dominated

    More than anything, if you ignore the Warriors obstacle, if you ignore the fact that this squad is clearly MUCH farther away than needing a bit of luck, if you just look at Harden, what you'll see is plainly obvious. The deeper you get into the playoffs, and against better teams and clearly better players, he gets outplayed.
     
    #125 JayZ750, May 12, 2017
  6. JayZ750

    JayZ750 Contributing Member

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    JR, if you look at the star trade history, I think the lack of value in return speaks entirely to my point about trading him now.

    Most of those trades came as players were past the point of it 100% clearly not going to work. In many cases with players who either already had or clearly were willing to walk voluntarily.

    Generally I'd agree with the folks that say if you're just getting this type of return, then its a pass. Though there are a couple of solid returns in there.

    As young players/draft picks are the likely key pieces - cause no, you're not getting Giannis, lol - it's hard to gauge value until years down the road. But bad draft picking is a separate issue then getting a bad return.

    I could see a Andrew Wiggins, Zach LaVine + Minny's 1st this year for Harden. It'd be a big ask, but Thibs seems to be perpetually in win now mode, and Harden + KAT seems formidable. Minny would probably prefer to send Rubio than LaVine. Bballholic would be delighted, lol. Certainly if Minny sneaks into a top 3 draft pick (virtually impossible if you think the lotto is in any way rigged, after they've had 2 consecutive #1 picks), it's a deal I'd happily take.

    But in any case, I think the end point is true. Every year you don't move Harden, the worse and worse the value in return will get. That's obvious.
     
    #126 JayZ750, May 12, 2017
  7. JayZ750

    JayZ750 Contributing Member

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    Yep, championship or bust. I think that's the only way to be a fan of a team, but as you said to each their own. Life is short, I'm not interested in the grass being greener in other cities sports wise. Perhaps if the Astros or Texans had a couple of rings in there in the last 15 years it might change my perspective (their success shouldn't really play a role, but I think you see where I'm gong with this.

    As far as "attractiveness"... I absolutely think it plays a role. It's what got Dwight to sign here in the first place, for example.

    To the extent the Rockets in the regular season had built up any "goodwill" towards attracting legitimate FAs this offseason, it completely evaporated. Why would Hayward even remotely consider the Rockets now? Not only can he get paid a ****-ton more in Utah, not have to uproot his life, not have to worry about the Rockets creating cap space, he's on a team that had a similar ceiling. They were 4 wins behind the Rockets with all kinds of injuries. Granted, that ceiling might be higher with Gordon, whereas on the Jazz they are the team they are, but its a completely different momentum than beating the Spurs in 6 (as they should have), and taking a couple of games off the Warriors.

    The DM pitch will be pretty transparent.
    DM - "We have an unstoppable offense and offensive genius coach and playmaking point guard!!" ... Free Agent - "um... no".
    DM - "We just need even more offense, spacing and 3 point shooting. More, more, moar!!"
    Free Agent - "eh...."
    DM - "Look, our guys can't underperform in the playoffs ever year, right?!?"
    Free Agent - "uh... let me check basketball reference real quick"
    DM - "Well we're going to add some size and focus on defense also"
    Free agent - "chuckle"

    The DM pitch the other way is easy. "Look, we took the Warriors to 6, we just need to add a big or two and another all star wing, and it's time to battle. You'd have a LEGIT chance of breaking the Warriors-Cavs trifecta, while getting paid and having great stats"
     
    #127 JayZ750, May 12, 2017
  8. J Sizzle

    J Sizzle Member

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    1) Yes. Attractiveness plays a role. You will not achieve attractiveness by blowing it up every time you don't win a championship. I can promise you that.

    2) I agree the team will need to change some stuff up in regards to their process, but just remember...this year was about rebuilding the culture and finding an identity. I think it's safe to say that they did that. Now it's time to build on a successful first year. That's what Morey and Co. will do.
     
    #128 J Sizzle, May 12, 2017
    Deuce likes this.
  9. JayZ750

    JayZ750 Contributing Member

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    Fair. But blowing it up everytime they don't win a championship is a gross overstatement. This is the James Harden era. The James Harden era is now done with it's fifth year.

    The idea that 5 years isn't enough is crazy.

    They built a culture and identity.
    It is one of analytics, threes, paint, FTs, spread, pace, offensive, small ball, and maybe a couple guys might try on defense.

    I think everyone got giddy throughout the year because they started off so hot, James started off so hot, and the MVP race kept it interesting. They didn't finish as hot and the problems which reared their ugly head in the Spurs series (and Thunder series) started popping up. Horrible 4th quarters. Harden iso ball. Horrible defense. Lack of consistent frontcourt play.

    The MDA hire still doesn't make any sense to me. You can't win in the NBA without quality defense.

    And their offensive identity crumbled anyway. In the playoffs, slower pace, better defense, and almost everyone on the roster shat the bed. The 3 guys that outperformed the most were three of the guys least reliant on that culture. Clint, Nene and Bev.

    Frankly, it's almost scary if the next step is to build on their culture. No... they shouldn't build on that.
     
    #129 JayZ750, May 12, 2017
  10. Pete the Cheat

    Pete the Cheat Member

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    These are all good points. And I understand where you are coming from. But this is an all or nothing league, and unless a legitimate star like the Greek Freak is walking through that door, to start over now would undoubtedly lead to another 10 years of the mediocrity treadmill we all came to love so much.
    Most of what you have said is true. Harden is what he is. And what he have learned is he is not a Lebron level talent capable of willing his team to the Finals every year.
    By trial and error we have also learned that he is not Center. Fawking Mike D
    And maybe...just maybe...he is at a point where resting him through the season strategically makes a whole lot of sense. Just saying...

    Now where I disagree is that the culture and system are flawed. I would argue our personnel was where we were flawed. Goddamit I hate to admit it...but Jopat was preaching from the mountaintop all season we needed to upgrade our bigs. I really hate it...like I have deleted this line a couple times hate it...but king dousche was right... facts are facts. And the season hinged on our lack of talent at 4/5.

    This may seem simplistic...but I still believe this team has championship potential...BUT it is going to take a talent upgrade to make it happen.

    One I will mention by name: Serge Ibaka. This is the stretch 5 this system was designed for. His versatility accomdates all of our other bigs. He has a whole thread dedicated to his pluses and minuses. But i have zero doubt if he had Andersons minutes in these playoffs we would be talking about how lob sided the refs are for Golden State right now

    Secondly: We need a second star. I don't have an easy answer for this. But someone has to take over a game when a defensive system takes the ball out of Hardens hands. Easier said than done I know. But go back to my first paragraph. This is an all or nothing league, and Golden State and Cleveland aren't going anywhere. Curry has Klay. Lebron has Kyrie. Harden has...Pat? Gordon? Lou? That is killer depth. But will kill you when you need a hero. Thanks
     
    #130 Pete the Cheat, May 12, 2017
    Patience likes this.
  11. Homey the Clown

    Homey the Clown Member

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    Keep. He's a proven fraud but I'd still keep him for now.
     
    #131 Homey the Clown, May 12, 2017
  12. riko

    riko Member

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    Give Harden, Gordon, Bev, Ariza(would trade for the right deal) Capella, Dekker and Nene another year. Trade Lou and Harrell for a big man.
     
    #132 riko, May 12, 2017
  13. alethios

    alethios Member

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    Truth is Harden needs another star next to him. He's not a complete package that can will a team to playoff victories. Even LeBron realized he needed help. Westbrook only tasted success in the playoffs because he had KD and to a lesser extinct, Ibaka.
     
    #133 alethios, May 12, 2017
  14. threepointshot3

    threepointshot3 Member

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    And Jordan the GOAT was getting Spanked by Larry bird before the likes of Pippen, Horace Grant and John Paxson came along.
     
    #134 threepointshot3, May 12, 2017
    Last edited: May 12, 2017
    alethios and Patience like this.
  15. Rocket River

    Rocket River Member

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    In those 4 yrs. . . . . Then people that got where we wanted to go was Spurs, Warriors and LeBron

    so for basically 28 other teams. . . nothing they did mattered either

    Rocket River
     
    #135 Rocket River, May 12, 2017
    Patience likes this.
  16. Easy

    Easy Boban Only Fan
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    I don't care if you believe whether Harden should be traded. It's irrelevant to me because it is not going to happen.

    Whatever you think about Harden, please stop saying that this is the first year he "transitioned" from SG to PG. Morey didn't think that. D'Antoni didn't think that. Harden didn't think that. Why do so many fans think that?

    People say that as if that's some kind of sacrifice on Harden's part to play out of position. That is the opposite of the truth. D'Antoni did not ask Harden to change his game to be a PG. He was trying to maximize what Harden could do best, fully realizing his strength. HARDEN WAS NOT ASKED TO CHANGE HOW HE PLAYED THE GAME. If a coach came in and asked Harden to play more off ball, to move without the ball through screens, THAT would be asking him to sacrifice/change his game.

    /rant
     
    #136 Easy, May 13, 2017
    subtomic likes this.
  17. WilliamGCash

    WilliamGCash Member

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    OP was being sarcastic?!
     
    #137 WilliamGCash, May 13, 2017
  18. Hakeemtheking

    Hakeemtheking Member

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    No. The poster just before you. JSizzle
     
    #138 Hakeemtheking, May 13, 2017
  19. WilliamGCash

    WilliamGCash Member

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    Oh. No, I understood JSizzle's sarcasm. I liked his post. I was agreeing with him and making fun of OP
     
    #139 WilliamGCash, May 13, 2017
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