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Harden defense watch

Discussion in 'Houston Rockets: Game Action & Roster Moves' started by OTMax, Nov 8, 2016.

  1. DonKnock

    DonKnock Member

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  2. Easy

    Easy Boban Only Fan
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    Exactly. Go back to the original conversation a few pages ago. This season's sample size was too small. So we were talking about last season's numbers. My point was that individual defense stats such as DRPM didn't really tell us anything.
     
  3. DonKnock

    DonKnock Member

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    DRPM is a projection not a cumulative stat. So it actually does mean something
     
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  4. rocketsballin

    rocketsballin Member

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    [​IMG]
     
  5. OTMax

    OTMax Member

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    Last night he hustled, dove on the floor, ran back, blocked twice so yes, we are witnessing it :) Maybe Beverley inspires him
     
  6. aelliott

    aelliott Contributing Member

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    Stop quoting TOV%, it's an estimated stat that isn't close to accurate. That number is an estimate due to BB-Reference not tracking actual possessions. The actual numbers are easily available on the NBA website.

    I've pointed this out to you at least 4 or 5 separate times. Why quote an estimate (19.6%) that is obviously so far off from the actual number (12.9%) ?

    An estimate that is off by 65% isn't useful. The NBA calls that stat Turnover Ratio.

    Here's Harden's TO Ratio for those same 3 Seasons.
    2014-2015 11.8%
    2015-2016 12.6%
    2016-2017 12.9%

    The actual numbers tell a different story than the estimated numbers.

    When available, always use actual number rather than estimated numbers.
     
  7. Easy

    Easy Boban Only Fan
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    Please explain. What is the projection based on? And since last season is history, what did the number project?
     
    #107 Easy, Nov 20, 2016
    Last edited: Nov 20, 2016
  8. aelliott

    aelliott Contributing Member

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    Here's a good article that explains it.

    https://cornerthreehoops.wordpress.com/2014/04/17/explaining-espns-real-plus-minus/
     
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  9. Easy

    Easy Boban Only Fan
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    Thanks. It's helpful.

    The problem remains. It IS based on some kind of past stats. As far as I understand, sample size is important in ANY kind of statistical analysis. The volatility of Curry's example is pronounced. According to his DRPM last season, it is supposed to predict that he would be a top 5 defender among all PGs. Now after about 25% of this season, it predicts that he would suck at defense. Curry is not injured compared to last season. And the metric is supposed to be independent of his teammates. So getting Durant should not have changed anything. What makes his DRPM plunge? This suggests to me that this "predictive" metric is pretty useless in predicting a player's performance.
     
  10. Mr. Clutch

    Mr. Clutch Contributing Member

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    You're wrong, the nba.com also uses a formula, but it's wrong.

    BREF is the more accurate number IMO. I've pointed this out to you 4 or 5 times.

    Stop telling me not to use an accurate stat that is widely used
     
    #110 Mr. Clutch, Nov 22, 2016
    Last edited: Nov 22, 2016
  11. Mr. Clutch

    Mr. Clutch Contributing Member

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  12. Harden's beard

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    What's the point of posting this video? Harden didn't even guard KCP on most possessions, in fact there was only one time in that video where Harden was guarding him and even then, KCP was only able to score through screens. Ariza was the main guy defending KCP, it seems like you didn't even watch the game and just looked at the box score and assumed KCP was Harden's assignment, smh.
     
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  13. Harden's beard

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    If you want to see some real poor defense, here's perfect example (cough, Westbrook)

     
  14. onreego

    onreego Member

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    If he's guarded him once, he's guarded him a thousand times.

    *please note that this is sarcasm.
     
  15. fryjol7

    fryjol7 Member

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    Yesterday was a particular bad night. Am I the only one? He literally stopped closing out many times last night.
     
  16. Nook

    Nook Member

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    It wasn't an especially good game overall for Harden. He missed free throws at the end that he had no business missing, he turned the ball over and he also didn't defend as well as he has been.

    However, I will point out again.... when it comes to James Harden, Russell Westbrook, Kobe Bryant and Tracy McGrady; it is unrealistic to expect consistent good or even average defense with the amount of minutes played and the usage rate. James Harden is being asked to be the teams point guard, best rebounder and scorer. It is impossible to do all those things and defend well over the course of an 82 game schedule. I have pointed out before that Russell Westbrook is and has been for years a worse defender than Harden and not much is made of it. Why is Westbrook a bad defender? Because he is asked to carry his team.... just like Harden.
     
  17. aelliott

    aelliott Contributing Member

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    The NBA's formula is number of turnovers/possessions. The formula is a straight calculation, just like FG%. How can you possibly be more accurate than that?

    Why would you not use the actual possessions that are tracked by the NBA? Using a formula to estimate the number of possessions is silly and inaccurate.

    It's the same as if you tried to use a formula to estimate the number of FGAs rather than just using the actual number.

    Are you truly arguing that a formula that estimates the number of possessions is more accurate than using the actual number of possessions as tracked by the NBA?

    If you want the most accurate measure of how often a player turns over the ball then you take the ACTUAL number of turnovers and you divide by the ACTUAL number of possessions.

    Unless you believe that the NBA doesn't know how to track turnovers or possessions, arguing anything else is ridiculous.
     
  18. onreego

    onreego Member

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    He really only defended Joe Johnson for a few plays but I think this one snippet is enough to show he shut down Joe Johnson completely. Right? Right??

    On serious note, he's having a pretty amazing season so far. He's not going to be perfect every game but he's showing much more effort this year which is what you should hope for. If you want to post videos of players going off on our team, you're probably going to have one almost every game. That would, however, require a thread on Ariza's defense or Brewer's constant gambling that causes a breakdown and scrambling of our defense when he's on the floor.
     
  19. Harden's beard

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    People forget that Kobe actually became a poor defender after departing with Shaq and had to carry the team's offense on a nightly basis. His all-NBA defense team selections were purely based on reputation, not on performance.

    Here's a quote from Phil Jackson's book 'The Last Season: A Team in Search of Its Soul'

    “Kobe’s defense, to be accurate, has faltered in recent years, despite his presence on the league’s all-defensive team. The voters have been seduced by his remarkable athleticism and spectacular steals, but he hasn’t played sound, fundamental defense."

    "Mesmerized by the ball, he’s gambled too frequently, putting us out of position, forcing rotations that leave a man wide open, and doesn’t keep his feet on the ground.”

    This is 2003-2004 prime Kobe Phil is talking about, and it only got worse since then.

    Advanced defensive stats tell the same story : Kobe was never a particularly good defender even at his peak, and just became flat out bad towards end of his career.
     
    #119 Harden's beard, Nov 22, 2016
    Last edited: Nov 22, 2016
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  20. fryjol7

    fryjol7 Member

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    I agree, and as I said before in this same thread. I´m not expecting espectacular defense. But I expect him to follow the basic principles thar allow the other 4 players to work harder for him on defense.

    My point is last night he did not. And I think we are not that good to afford that luxury. I saw a couple corner three closeouts that of course ended up being threes for one of the worst 3pt shooting team in the league.

    There are certain games where there is moro to be earned on the defensive side of the ball.
     

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