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Harden And The Top Scorers In The League Assisted and Unassisted FGs

Discussion in 'Houston Rockets: Game Action & Roster Moves' started by Air Canada, Jun 26, 2016.

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SkareKrow Member

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larsv8 said: ↑

Just stop.

Your caveman level of analysis is so flawed it's laughable.

Cherry picking random players at the SG position and posting raw scoring numbers is just plain stupid. There is so many things wrong with that, I don't even know where to begin.
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You asked him when, he gave you guys.

#81 SkareKrow, Jun 27, 2016

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larsv8 Contributing Member

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SkareKrow said: ↑

You asked him when, he gave you guys.
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No, I asked for times when Harden was exploited by being targeted offensively.

This would be akin to me posting a bunch of opposing players bad stat lines and saying "SEE HARDEN IZ GUD AT DEFENZ"

Its lazy and worthless information for a variety of reasons.

#82 larsv8, Jun 27, 2016
Htownballer38 Member

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larsv8 said: ↑

No, I asked for times when Harden was exploited by being targeted offensively.

This would be akin to me posting a bunch of opposing players bad stat lines and saying "SEE HARDEN IZ GUD AT DEFENZ"

Its lazy and worthless information for a variety of reasons.
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It is known around the league to attack a teams glaring weakness on defense. If we were just playing a regular street ball game and you knew the opposing team had a player on it that refuse to play defense, you would exploit it ever chance you got. Or if u knew a dude couldn't handle you in the post, I would feed you every chance I got. That's freaking basketball 101.

In order for you to really see it yourself, y'all would have to set down and actually put in the work to dissect the entire film on every game. Especially early on in the season. In the 2nd half Harden picked his defensive intensity up and actually played better defensively.

#83 Htownballer38, Jun 27, 2016
Htownballer38 Member

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larsv8 said: ↑

This is not "someone not agreeing with you", this is hate.
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Fans just can't be critical or call a spade a spade without someone saying you're hating.

Damn shame people actually think like that.

#84 Htownballer38, Jun 27, 2016
Texanasiafan Member

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OP, did Morey include you already in the team to meet with Durant?

Assuming we will get a meeting of course.

#85 Texanasiafan, Jun 27, 2016
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peleincubus said: ↑

I'm not sure why I am so pessimistic but I just don't see any good players coming to the Rockets this offseason.
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I think you being realistic, I just don't see anyone wanting to play for MDA

#86 ryano2009, Jun 27, 2016
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Rox11 said: ↑

Which means he can't play with another pg.
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Why do u say he can't play with another pG?
Lawson? Didn't u know he was suck in Pacers?

#87 b2bizchina, Jun 27, 2016

Air Canada Member

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CantGoLeft said: ↑

I know what you're trying to say/prove in your first post, but your argument is flawed when you use unassisted FG's as the main point.

Unassisted FGs can be because of a offensive rebound then tip/layup or quick jumper. They can be a player bringing up the ball and taking a quick jumper like Curry often does, or a player like Harden driving to the basket. It can be a fast break. Or it could be a guy going ISO like Harden, Kobe and Melo.

Curry's elite skill is as a shooter so in most cases he's going to be catching and shooting or catching - one dribble then shooting. Sometimes he may go one and one then step back and shoot a 3P like Harden does too. But in general he's not going to dribble, dribble, dribble then take a jumper because defenders know he's a jump shooter.

KD and LeBron are mulit skilled scorers w/o one elite skill so unless going ISO most of the time their assisted FGs aren't going to be low. They're both probably better overall scorers than Harden.

I listed Kyrie because driving to the basket is his elite skill even though he plays with LeBron who is a willing passer his assisted FGs are low. I listed Lin because that is his one elite skill and probably the primary reason he is a NBA player. His % of assisted FG went up more and more as he played more off the ball and became a better catch n shoot player. I didn't list Westbrook 22% but driving to the basket is also his elite skill.

In the end of the day Harden's one elite skill is driving to the basket and it makes him one of the best offensive players. At OKC he played off ball more often but was maybe a top 30 player at best. Yes the Rockets need more play makers in the starting lineup and off the bench. But in general they need more multi skilled offensive players that can also play D.

You don't try to add Lawson, Rubio, Teague, Lowry, Dragic, Rondo or Conley because you don't want Harden to stop using his elite skill. You want to have better players around him so that he doesn't try to drive into the lane when he's being double or triple teamed. Better doesn't have to be best. You need to build a deep roster and hope a young player takes a big step into stardom like Whiteside.
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Except my point isn't solely assisted and unassisted FGs.. I don't think you got what I said in that post... I broke it down.. Yes there can be the random offensive putbacks(an outlier) or the standard dribble drives or pullups, but personnel dictates the necessity for the varying frequency more than simply style or skillset.

Kyrie has the freedom to play as a dribble drive... ISO heavy guard and still be successful cuz he plays with a superior high usage offensive player that can create for everyone else when he doesn't. Lin is completely irrelevant to the subject... So yeah.

Once again.. I used the top scorers in the league for a reason.Those guys are also the top scorers on their teams and you're using guys that play with them... Those guys you mentioned are not the superior high usage players on their teams. I mentioned them when I went into the teammates to make a point about what the supporting personnel provides.... Let me more specific so you follow.

Yes Curry is a great catch and shoot player and he takes a lot of these. He also takes a fair share of off the dribble jumpshots too.. Now let's say Draymond Green, Iggy, and Shaun Livingston are all gone or heck let's even say he swapped places with Harden on Houston.

Guess what? His % of unassisted FGs will go up and assisted FGs will go down... Why?

Cuz.... Personnel... Ding ding ding. :grin:
What do you think playmakers do? Evey player can't find him at the opportune time to score... Every player can't create consistent catch and shoot opportunities. He'll be forced to take more of those off the dribble jumpers and pull-ups.

And I mentioned %AST in additon to show how much he contributes to the teams offense in totality.... Which only further shows he has the largest offensive load in the association... As he's the teams sole legit ball handler, playmaker, and shot creator.

And yet he was a very good catch and shoot player... Top 30 @ best cuz he was in a lesser role and not in his prime which has only just begun now. Also Harden doesn't just have one elite offensive skill... Overall he's an elite scorer, but if you wanna get into specific offensive aspects.

He's an elite ball handler, driver, foul-drawer, free throw shooter, and playmaker... KD is better than both tho....

#88 Air Canada, Jun 27, 2016
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CantGoLeft; You don't try to add Lawson said:

Conley yess... Most of those no because they're past their prime or a liability in some aspect... Why? Cuz Conley isn't below average in any facet... He'd fit in well since he's pretty good at everything and great at some things and also is a very good decision maker.
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#89 Air Canada, Jun 27, 2016
Air Canada Member

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knickstorm said: ↑

Ohh stop. You put the likes of George HIll,Monta, McCollum on this team, do you think that # will change?? Of course not. The unassisted baskets comes because his game doesnt mesh with players who can create assist opportunities.

When was the last time Ty Lawson had problem creating assists before he showed up to Houston?
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"his game doesnt mesh with players who can create assist opportunities." Complete nonsense and idiotic.

Monta wouldn't be a good fit.... Too erratic.
George Hill would instantly be the second best playmaker and could create a little more for Harden... A good defender and a quality shooter. McCollum would also be great and lessen the offensive load significantly.

Lawson was overrated before coming here... Lost a step and is garbage... He was horrible in every aspect.

#90 Air Canada, Jun 27, 2016
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Htownballer38 said: ↑

It never fails to amaze me on how quickly people use the Hate word and how often they use it when it concerning sports.

Why make arbitrary claims when you don't know me on a personal level. If you did actually know me you would see my family and I rock our James Harden jerseys or T-shirts every freaking game. Even when I'm either in Canada or offshore I rock my Harden jersey. So miss me with that bullcrap hate word.

And all because someone doesn't agree with your hot take about Harden should not classify them as a hater. You're using these bloated stats the wrong freaking way. It's your agenda to dress up his flaws because you're tired of people being critical about his damn play this past season. Dude is went to several Games this season in which Harden didn't start going into Harden mode until the 2nd half. There have been games in which he stopped being aggressive in the 4th. Now do your overly bloated stats factor any of that in.

Again stop looking for excuses to why he played atrocious defense this past season
Just accept the fact that he has to give better effort in that area going forward. Also ball movement is the key and not Harden's ISO. There have been plenty of games in which the ball movement was great and the entire team played better. During those games Harden played tremendously on defense. Hmmmm go figure.

Bwhahaha gotta love the GARM
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You made up nonsense that wasn't factual whatsoever to do just that... Hate. Lol.. the stats aren't bloated... They're factual and I applied reasoning beyond them. There won't be any consistency in games with one playmaker, ball handler, and shot creator... That is the crux of all the teams ills.

#91 Air Canada, Jun 27, 2016
dmoneybangbang Member

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Air Canada said: ↑

Except my point isn't solely assisted and unassisted FGs.. I don't think you got what I said in that post... I broke it down.. Yes there can be the random offensive putbacks(an outlier) or the standard dribble drives or pullups, but personnel dictates the necessity for the varying frequency more than simply style or skillset.

Kyrie has the freedom to play as a dribble drive... ISO heavy guard and still be successful cuz he plays with a superior high usage offensive player that can create for everyone else when he doesn't. Lin is completely irrelevant to the subject... So yeah.

Once again.. I used the top scorers in the league for a reason.Those guys are also the top scorers on their teams and you're using guys that play with them... Those guys you mentioned are not the superior high usage players on their teams. I mentioned them when I went into the teammates to make a point about what the supporting personnel provides.... Let me more specific so you follow.

Yes Curry is a great catch and shoot player and he takes a lot of these. He also takes a fair share of off the dribble jumpshots too.. Now let's say Draymond Green, Iggy, and Shaun Livingston are all gone or heck let's even say he swapped places with Harden on Houston.

Guess what? His % of unassisted FGs will go up and assisted FGs will go down... Why?

Cuz.... Personnel... Ding ding ding. :grin:
What do you think playmakers do? Evey player can't find him at the opportune time to score... Every player can't create consistent catch and shoot opportunities. He'll be forced to take more of those off the dribble jumpers and pull-ups.

And I mentioned %AST in additon to show how much he contributes to the teams offense in totality.... Which only further shows he has the largest offensive load in the association... As he's the teams sole legit ball handler, playmaker, and shot creator.

And yet he was a very good catch and shoot player... Top 30 @ best cuz he was in a lesser role and not in his prime which has only just begun now. Also Harden doesn't just have one elite offensive skill... Overall he's an elite scorer, but if you wanna get into specific offensive aspects.

He's an elite ball handler, driver, foul-drawer, free throw shooter, and playmaker... KD is better than both tho....
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Great post. Too many folks look for easy answers to complex problems.

#92 dmoneybangbang, Jun 27, 2016
Air Canada Member

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kjayp said: ↑

Yeh, its about as laughable as your constant refusal to acknowledge even the simplest concept like defensive points given up hold the SAME weight as points scored...
or that a defensive specialist with poor offensive skills is less detrimental than an offensive specialist with poor defensive skills...
Face it, man - for all your ragging on people for their "intellectual laziness" you are the flipside of the same coin... you just quote stats out of context of actually winning and think that makes you superior...
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First off... I didn't solely use the stats, but factual reasoning. And your basketball knowledge needs some work...

You won't find many games in a season where we supposedly lost cuz Harden's guy lit us up... You will find many where no one else could score or make an open shot.... Where no one could create some more offense.

You do know that teams exploit offensive liabilities all the time... Look at Rondo.. look at Tony Allen... etc.. there's a reason some guys are left open or sagged off of.

#93 Air Canada, Jun 27, 2016

Air Canada Member

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kjayp said: ↑

My point is that statistics and snippets need to be placed IN CONTEXT. THEORETICALLY, if you have a guy that scores 50 points a game and leads the league in scoring, but is a turnstile on defense and lets any random scrub light him up for 51 points - does the offensive output really matter? Is it contributing to the overall success of the team or is it pretty much a wash? This is an exaggerated example justice to illustrate that just offensive stats may not paint an overall accurate picture.
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It's clear to me you don't really watch enough games and use tired casual narratives.... First off that's a ridiculous example, but if you really wanna talk about that game... Harden wasn't the primary defender... Heck Cisco guarded Brew more and Brewer scored most those points on layups in transition and from steals.... If you're gonna talk about something. Know the facts.

kjayp said: ↑

The OP began the thread comparing assisted points between James harden (primary ballhandler whose bringing the ball upcourt) with Cousins (among others) who is primarily a front court player who HAS TO get thrown the ball (because he's not bringing it upcourt...).
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I listed the top scorers... Boogie is in there, but he was never the focus... The perimeter players in there were if you read the full OP. Reading comprehension my man.

#94 Air Canada, Jun 27, 2016
kjayp Contributing Member

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Air Canada said: ↑

First off... I didn't solely use the stats, but factual reasoning. And your basketball knowledge needs some work...

You won't find many games in a season where we supposedly lost cuz Harden's guy lit us up... You will find many where no one else could score or make an open shot.... Where no one could create some more offense.

You do know that teams exploit offensive liabilities all the time... Look at Rondo.. look at Tony Allen... etc.. there's a reason some guys are left open or sagged off of.
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Those comments were a reply to Larvs8, regarding our exchanges... I wasn't intending to direct them at you...

Based on what you are saying here, I would offer the following comments though...
1) Yes, I agree that offensive liabilities can be exploited at times... but as I stated, they are typically not AS detrimental as a defensive liability.
2) Yes, there were certainly FAR too many times that our guys couldn't hit open shots... but we had the #7 offense while sporting the #20 defense.... that tells me it should be far easier to improve our overall performance by working on our defensive shortcomings rather than worrying about trying to score more... seems defense would be a far easier opportunity to move the needle and impact the scoring differential...

#95 kjayp, Jun 27, 2016
Htownballer38 Member

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kjayp said: ↑

Those comments were a reply to Larvs8, regarding our exchanges... I wasn't intending to direct them at you...

Based on what you are saying here, I would offer the following comments though...
1) Yes, I agree that offensive liabilities can be exploited at times... but as I stated, they are typically not AS detrimental as a defensive liability.
2) Yes, there were certainly FAR too many times that our guys couldn't hit open shots... but we had the #7 offense while sporting the #20 defense.... that tells me it should be far easier to improve our overall performance by working on our defensive shortcomings rather than worrying about trying to score more... seems defense would be a far easier opportunity to move the needle and impact the scoring differential...
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They're not trying to here all this brother. And I commend you for taking the high road. It is very insulting when another member try to check someone's basketball knowledge or simply thinks their opinions are much better than the next man or woman. There was no need for that dude to tell you are anybody else that their basketball knowledge needs some help because their comments doesn't aligns with their's. Lol are you don't watch much basketball. Wow. You have tossed out some very solid points by the way. Our defensive effort was horrible this past season. The season before that we were a top 10 defense.

#96 Htownballer38, Jun 27, 2016
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Htownballer38 said: ↑

They're not trying to here all this brother. And I commend you for taking the high road. It is very insulting when another member try to check someone's basketball knowledge or simply thinks their opinions are much better than the next man or woman. There was no need for that dude to tell you are anybody else that their basketball knowledge needs some help because their comments doesn't aligns with their's. Lol are you don't watch much basketball. Wow. You have tossed out some very solid points by the way. Our defensive effort was horrible this past season. The season before that we were a top 10 defense.
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Thanks for the supportive words, my man! Yeh, far to often a free exchange of ideas and views deteriorate into insults and pot shots... but we all want the same thing - a team we can be proud of! Hopefully, there are better days ahead for our team, so there won't be such divisive issues.

After the season that just ended, I WISH I didn't watch that much basketball - and hadn't forked over the cash to get the Rockets League Pass - LOL

#97 kjayp, Jun 27, 2016
dmoneybangbang Member

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Htownballer38 said: ↑

They're not trying to here all this brother. And I commend you for taking the high road. It is very insulting when another member try to check someone's basketball knowledge or simply thinks their opinions are much better than the next man or woman. There was no need for that dude to tell you are anybody else that their basketball knowledge needs some help because their comments doesn't aligns with their's. Lol are you don't watch much basketball. Wow. You have tossed out some very solid points by the way. Our defensive effort was horrible this past season. The season before that we were a top 10 defense.
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Wasn't Harden and Howard on the team both seasons.......? One player is an elite offensive player and one was an elite defensive player. I wonder which player didn't fulfill their duty the most.

#98 dmoneybangbang, Jun 27, 2016

Mr. Clutch Contributing Member

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dmoneybangbang said: ↑

Wasn't Harden and Howard on the team both seasons.......? One player is an elite offensive player and one was an elite defensive player. I wonder which player didn't fulfill their duty the most.
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Weird logic. Harden was clearly the much worse defender. The problems defensively were 3pt defense and transition, not two areas you typically rely on your center for.

Besides, isn't this thread about blaming teammates for not assisting Harden or something?

#99 Mr. Clutch, Jun 27, 2016
vlaurelio Contributing Member

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Texanasiafan said: ↑

OP, did Morey include you already in the team to meet with Durant?

Assuming we will get a meeting of course.
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Youd be stupid to think durant doesnt know hardens bcarrying the rockets. Hes the players mvp

#100 vlaurelio, Jun 27, 2016

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