Harden And The Top Scorers In The League Assisted and Unassisted FGs

Troubling, the intellectual laziness that has afflicted our fan base, or I should say, the people who post on this board, who don't seem much like fans, at all.

The narrative has become that Harden NEVER plays defense, based on some Vines of a few blatant examples, in which he did not. The assumption here is that because it happened those times, it happens all the time, which is false.

Somehow, this enormous leap in logic, leads to another enormous leap in logic, in that him "NEVER" playing defense, completely cancels out his juggernaut level of play on offense.

Congrats on lazying your way into a very stupid opinion.

 

I know what you're trying to say/prove in your first post, but your argument is flawed when you use unassisted FG's as the main point.

Unassisted FGs can be because of a offensive rebound then tip/layup or quick jumper. They can be a player bringing up the ball and taking a quick jumper like Curry often does, or a player like Harden driving to the basket. It can be a fast break. Or it could be a guy going ISO like Harden, Kobe and Melo.

Curry's elite skill is as a shooter so in most cases he's going to be catching and shooting or catching - one dribble then shooting. Sometimes he may go one and one then step back and shoot a 3P like Harden does too. But in general he's not going to dribble, dribble, dribble then take a jumper because defenders know he's a jump shooter.

KD and LeBron are mulit skilled scorers w/o one elite skill so unless going ISO most of the time their assisted FGs aren't going to be low. They're both probably better overall scorers than Harden.

I listed Kyrie because driving to the basket is his elite skill even though he plays with LeBron who is a willing passer his assisted FGs are low. I listed Lin because that is his one elite skill and probably the primary reason he is a NBA player. His % of assisted FG went up more and more as he played more off the ball and became a better catch n shoot player. I didn't list Westbrook 22% but driving to the basket is also his elite skill.

In the end of the day Harden's one elite skill is driving to the basket and it makes him one of the best offensive players. At OKC he played off ball more often but was maybe a top 30 player at best. Yes the Rockets need more play makers in the starting lineup and off the bench. But in general they need more multi skilled offensive players that can also play D.

You don't try to add Lawson, Rubio, Teague, Lowry, Dragic, Rondo or Conley because you don't want Harden to stop using his elite skill. You want to have better players around him so that he doesn't try to drive into the lane when he's being double or triple teamed. Better doesn't have to be best. You need to build a deep roster and hope a young player takes a big step into stardom like Whiteside.

 

nice job placing the statistic into context!

 

same can be said of people that want to use random offensive only stats as a shortcut to thinking...

 

What random offensive stat is being used?

We have an overwhelming number of offensive statistics that paint Harden has a monster on the basketball court.

 

Relax... just saying that people that want to point at hardens defense and declare him to be trash are wrong... and people that want to throw up various offensive stats to declare him the messiah are also wrong...

As with most things, the truth lies somewhere in the middle...

As you stated "We have an overwhelming number of offensive statistics that paint Harden has a monster on the basketball court." Great... but the game is played on BOTH ends of the court... wins and losses are based on not only your teams ability to score - but also your ability to prevent the other team from scoring...

This is why I have become increasingly frustrated with this board. Just as a few clips of poor defense may not paint an overall accurate picture, offensive statistics do not either... both have to be placed in context....
If there's a 20pt gap with 2 mins left and James is letting the guy he's guarding blow by him - who cares... games over...
By the same token, if the same circumstance exists and James is dumping in points left and right - again, who cares... games over and the defensive intensity probably isn't there...

Additionally, the whole comparing Harden's performance to Curry is totally meaningless...
On the one hand you have a team that was blowing teams out by 20 or 30 points with regularity while setting all time records... their pace and play calling probably isn't going to be the same as it would be if it was a 2 point game...

Stat guys laugh at people that rely on the 'eye test' and 'eye test' people laugh at the stat guys who cling to statistics as though the they are the end all conclusive assessment...

 

What about my post implied I wasn't in a relaxed state?

Unfortunately, this is not a "truth lies in the middle" situation.

James Harden is a magnificent basketball player. There are a lot of people on this board who greatly over emphasize his shortcomings, and greatly under appreciate his contributions. This is not something to compromise on. Those people need to stop being emotional idiots.

Well yeah, thats why we have defensive role players, IE people whose specific job is too focus on playing defense, while passively contributing on offense (like setting picks, shooting open shots)

Not really sure what your point is.

 

fine, you're cool as a cucumber - my bad... lol


[/QUOTE]Well yeah, thats why we have defensive role players, IE people whose specific job is too focus on playing defense, while passively contributing on offense (like setting picks, shooting open shots)[/QUOTE]

This is where you are wrong... A defensive specialist is fine... because he can focus on defense and let other guys score (ala Rodman with MJ) because on offense you get to decide who has the ball and who is going to take the shot... and odds are it isn't going to be your defensive specialist. Not the same with an offensive specialist... the OTHER team gets to decide who has the ball and will take the shot. If you have an overly poor defender, the other team can exploit that all night... more than 1 scrub has had a career night with harden as his primary defender...

[/QUOTE]Not really sure what your point is.[/QUOTE]

My point is that statistics and snippets need to be placed IN CONTEXT. THEORETICALLY, if you have a guy that scores 50 points a game and leads the league in scoring, but is a turnstile on defense and lets any random scrub light him up for 51 points - does the offensive output really matter? Is it contributing to the overall success of the team or is it pretty much a wash? This is an exaggerated example just to illustrate that just offensive stats may not paint an overall accurate picture.
The OP began the thread comparing assisted points between James harden (primary ballhandler whose bringing the ball upcourt) with Cousins (among others) who is primarily a front court player who HAS TO get thrown the ball (because he's not bringing it upcourt...).

 

Ohh stop. You put the likes of George HIll,Monta, McCollum on this team, do you think that # will change?? Of course not. The unassisted baskets comes because his game doesnt mesh with players who can create assist opportunities.

When was the last time Ty Lawson had problem creating assists before he showed up to Houston?

 

LOL, yeah, because Harden was "exploited" on defense. When did that happen exactly? Oh right never. Harden occassionaly gets a backdoor cut pulled on him, or he will lazily reach for a steal or poke out rather than move his feet, resulting in a blow by. This happens MAYBE once or twice a game, if that.

The narrative that other teams are exploiting Harden all night is yet another example of a huge exaggeration used a diving board into a pool of bad logic and conclusions.

Stop making **** up.

Statistics are already in context for people who know what they are and what they represent. Your "example" doesn't make sense, because advanced stats capture all that information. You seem to just not know how to use them or what they represent.

The OP messed up by including bigs in his numbers, but it doesn't invalidate what his premise was. If it makes you feel better, you can pretend that Davis and Cousins aren't there and re-evaluate. In case you missed it, here was his underlying point:

That is a reasonable position.

 

Just before Houston, in Denver, and then right after Houston, in Indiana.

 

Yeh, Fournier nearly doubling his season average by dropping 29 didnt happen...
Afflalo 31 vs season avg 12.8
Reddick 40 vs 16.3
McLemore 24 and 19 vs 7.8
Kent Bazemore 26 vs 11.6
....but i'm making stuff up...

 

Just stop.

Your caveman level of analysis is so flawed it's laughable.

Cherry picking random players at the SG position and posting raw scoring numbers is just plain stupid. There is so many things wrong with that, I don't even know where to begin.

 

It never fails to amaze me on how quickly people use the Hate word and how often they use it when it concerning sports.

Why make arbitrary claims when you don't know me on a personal level. If you did actually know me you would see my family and I rock our James Harden jerseys or T-shirts every freaking game. Even when I'm either in Canada or offshore I rock my Harden jersey. So miss me with that bullcrap hate word.

And all because someone doesn't agree with your hot take about Harden should not classify them as a hater. You're using these bloated stats the wrong freaking way. It's your agenda to dress up his flaws because you're tired of people being critical about his damn play this past season. Dude is went to several Games this season in which Harden didn't start going into Harden mode until the 2nd half. There have been games in which he stopped being aggressive in the 4th. Now do your overly bloated stats factor any of that in.

Again stop looking for excuses to why he played atrocious defense this past season
Just accept the fact that he has to give better effort in that area going forward. Also ball movement is the key and not Harden's ISO. There have been plenty of games in which the ball movement was great and the entire team played better. During those games Harden played tremendously on defense. Hmmmm go figure.


Bwhahaha gotta love the GARM

 

This is not "someone not agreeing with you", this is hate.

 

I think the lost point is that, if Harden isnt handling the ball then he is uninterested in the play. He dictates that he either scores or distributes or he is in la la land. I mean do we honestly believe if a coach called a play that didnt involve him that Harden js going to sell the play through hustle and cutting?

 

Yeh, its about as laughable as your constant refusal to acknowledge even the simplest concept like defensive points given up hold the SAME weight as points scored...
or that a defensive specialist with poor offensive skills is less detrimental than an offensive specialist with poor defensive skills...
Face it, man - for all your ragging on people for their "intellectual laziness" you are the flipside of the same coin... you just quote stats out of context of actually winning and think that makes you superior...

 

I am superior. I am acknowledging reality, not your imagination land, the only place where the things you are describing, actually occur.

Your arguments, like your sentences, are poorly put together and don't make sense.

 

Thanks for proving my point!