Harden - and how to build a championship team around him

Agreed 100%

Harden is more like Iverson. Not a Steph Curry

 

You don't think going from starting to a bench role (because of the issues playing with Harden) has anything to do with Lawson's struggles? What about the fact he was relegated to being a spot up shooter when paired with Harden? Those factors could never have destroyed his attitude and confidence?

Obviously Lawson is also to blame, but a guy that averaged 15 and 8 in Denver for his career didn't just forget how to play basketball when he got here. Harden is a contributing factor to his struggles, like it or not.

 

Ego. Respect. Usage. Balance. Effort. These are tenets and issues involved in building a contender.

I think it's simple. Harden doesn't have the makeup to be the best player on a championship team. Talent, yes. Makeup, no. We need to get another star that Harden respects. That's the only way he will address the deficiencies. Usage, defense, effort. Dwight isn't the guy Harden needs, and I don't blame Harden for that. They don't mesh -- age gap, personality gap, dwights game is messy - can't score in post, free throw problems, dumb fouls, technicals, goofball personality. In many ways, they mirror each other. Their intangibles don't mix at all.

Getting the right coach is needed but isn't a fix.

So who are we talking about. Durant, obvious choice. Maybe it's a player younger than Harden, which makes him take on mantle of big brother who has to lead by example. I doubt it, but maybe. Building a winner isn't in the stats this time. It's getting in Hardens head and heart. What type of people do we need to put around him. It's not just about three point shooting percentage.

Trade Harden? Hell no. Better off hoping against hope he matures. Like betting on Yao and Tmacs health. At least the underlying basketball talent is there. The future is all on Harden. Everyone else is just along for the ride (or prisoners, depending on the tone of your outlook).

 

Even though I think our issues lie mostly on defense I have to question this. Why is it NOT the way we play? Is it because the coaching staff doesn't want to implement because they believe we don't have the right players. Or is it because we have Harden and so we chose to go out and get the type of players who are not deemed fit to control the ball when Harden is off ball? Which came first?

Now, we can both agree defense is an issue on this team when you're defensive efficiency is lumped together with the likes of Phoenix, New Orleans, Sacramento, and Denver. Here is where I have a problem with 'building' around Harden. Like aelliott says, Harden is not ISO-ing all the time, nor even touching the ball more than 6 and a half minutes per game. And we're not the type of team to have Harden curling off screens off-ball either. So for the rest of our offensive possessions, Harden is essentially playing the role of a catch and shoot guy.

However, Harden has still not played defense at a level where we can't have a thread talking about putting players around him without mentioning that they need to cover up for his defensive deficiencies. There aren't any great public stats for individual defense like average times a defender is 2+ feet away from his man on the wrong side of the hoop in a half court set per average minutes per game or percent of defensive possessions where player does not box out opponent nor leak out in transition per defensive play involved. So in this sense we cannot prove that Harden primarily responsible for the Rockets' poor defensive efficiency but we can infer the eye-ball test and from Harden never assigned as the primary defender on match ups like Curry, Kawhi, LeBron, etc...

In essence, I'm saying we need more defensive effort out of a supposed world class athlete who only holds the ball 6.2 mpg and is not some one man dribble machine.

If you're in the build around Harden and have him as your star player camp, then you almost have to believe that the next coach who comes in will change the way our offense is played, but more importantly changes the way Harden plays defense, which would stop limiting the types of players we have to surround him with.

 

No I don't think that, because that is total fiction. He has never been relegated to a spot up shooter, he was never not confident, he never had a bad attitude.

He was just flat out bad.

The same reason OKC, LAC, CLE, and more recently Mia (W/ Lebron) didn't/don't.

 

I see maybe one current contender on that list.

And I have to disagree, all of those teams have a higher percent of set plays which involve off the ball movement to set up a shooter.

Miami: Run Ray Allen/James Jones off screens as either the primary option or distraction for Wade/LeBron to attack.

LAC: Reddick all day.

OKC: Have Durant come off screens on catch and shoots. Over-covering or miscommunication leads to Kanter or Ibaka rolling to the rim.

Only Cleveland right now I would say doesn't have a consistent off the ball threat. But the difference is they've got a big who can shoot the 3 consistently in Love, which helps spread the floor when LeBron or Kyrie come off pick and rolls. On top of that, they also are elite in defensive efficiency.

I don't think we can't be successful having one primary playmaker in Harden. I do think that having more options gives you both the advantage of less reliance on Harden drawing fouls on the offensive end as well as more threats for the defense and thus easier for other players to attack.

 

Um, not sure you are following your own question:

 

You're asking me why our offensive philosophy is what it is. How could I possibly know that? My best guess is that the organization feels that it will work and to a great extent it does.

Everyone complains about how bad our shooters are yet we're the 7th most efficient team on offense. How is that possible? Basically you have to credit the system taking advantage of efficient shots or you have to credit Harden. I'm 99.9% sure that nobody is going to give Harden credit for anything so I guess the system produces an efficient offense even with poor shooters. That's my guess but you'd have to ask Morey to know for sure.

Harden not guarding other teams best scorer isn't unusual. Most teams don't have their best offensive players guard the toughest defensive assignments. When Indy met Miami in the playoffs, Stephenson had the primary responsibility for Lebron rather than George. When the Rockets play SA, Danny Green is the primary defender on Harden rather than Leonard.

Nobody is saying that Harden is a good defender. The point is that he's not single handedly killing our defense. There's been lots of superstars that weren't good defenders and their team assembled their roster to compensate for that. The Showtime Lakers traded all-star Norm Nixon for Byron Scott because Scott was a good pairing with Magic. Scott guarded the best offensive player so Magic didn't have to. Michael Cooper also filled the same role for LA.

Dirk Nowitzki has always been a very poor defender which is why they brought in Tyson Chandler to pair with him. Steve Nash was a terrible defender. Barkley was terrible defensively. BTW my favorite Barkley quote of all time was "As long as (Larry) Bird is around, I'll only be the 2nd worst defender in basketball".
Philly hid Dr. J on defense for years by using Bobby Jones and Maurice Cheeks to help out.

The idea that we can't play defense because Harden is a below average defender is silly. DeRozan, Lillard and Kyrie Irving are all worse defenders than Harden yet their teams have magically been able to remain a top 10 defense with them playing big minutes. The Sacramento Bee produces an entertaining feature which names an NBA all-No defense team every year and for the last 3 years it's been Lillard and Irving trading off for the title of worst defensive player. Why is it that their teammates are able to defend but ours can't? Cleveland is even able to play good defense with both Irving and Love playing heavy minutes. How is that?

Would it help if Harden played better D? Sure it would but that's not the reason for all of our problems as many posters would have you believe. Whether people want to realize it or not, we don't have many good defenders on our team. Forget elite defenders, most all of our players are average at best. That's a big issue because several of those players are suppose to be stronger defenders than offensive players. What we end up with is far too many rotation guys that are average to below average on both sides of the ball. If we had an elite wing defender who wasn't good offensively, that would be ok. Instead we have an average to below average wing defender who isn't good offensively.

I was thinking about this the other day and I had difficulty deciding the strength of several of our players. Brewer, better offensively or defensively? Jones, above average on either offense or defense?

Even the guys that had a defined skillset in the past are less clear. Is Ariza really a better defender nowdays than he is an offensive player? He's shooting the 3 pretty well and defensively he can't stay in front of anyone. Ditto with Beverley, he's been very average on defense for the last 2 seasons. Howard is still an elite rebounder but he's no longer a great or even very good defender.

We still have people talking about the Rockets underachieving with "this much talent". What talent is that? Who are the Rockets 2nd and 3rd best offensive players? Who are the Rockets top 3 defenders? No compare your answers to those questions to their counterparts on the better teams.

Sorry for the rant but it's easier than replying to multiple threads.

 

KD attempts less than 3 shots off of screens this season and it's one of the most inefficient things that he does.

EDIT: Another good example is the Spurs. No player on the Spurs averages even a single FGA off of a screen per game. Patty Mills is the most frequent and he's attempted 50 shots off of screens over the first 53 games he played.

 

You can't build a championship team around a guy who needs the ball all the time, isn't a leader, doesn't play defense, and doesn't really seem to give a damn about it.

 

setting screens does not have to result in shots. that's just part of movement without the ball and gives an offense versatility.

 

Understood, but it's unreal to think that you're setting too many screens without producing shots.

 

Im i alone in hoping the rockets dont make the playoffs..so we keep the 1st that we gave to denver for lawson..also i would take the celtics deal for howard..get 2 1sts from them..have 3 1st round picks for next year to work with..gsw is obviously winning it again..great time to quickly rebuild..

 

why not? the initial shot does not have to be on screen. I could easily be setting screens for a teammate where they receive a pass and they in turn pass the ball again. And depending on more movement by others or how the defense is reacting the ball can still continue to move.

 

When McHale started Lawson next to Harden to start the year, Harden was still running the offense, and Lawson was being asked to hit corner threes like Beverley does. That is not his game, and he was terrible from the floor as a result. At no point did the keys to the offense get turned over to him with Harden playing off the ball. Then he goes to the bench and gets sporadic minutes. That will screw with anyone's mindset, especially a guy that has played well in the NBA for multiple seasons.

Ty Lawson this year=Rondo in Dallas last year. If the Rockets deal him this week, he'll look like a completely different player if he gets to run the show like Rondo does right now in Sacramento.

 

I'd rather not quote the extremely long response but I think it can be split into the offensive philosophy and your take on the Rockets' defense this season.

To address the point of whether the Rockets being an efficiently offensive team despite having one guy who has consistently created offensive this season IMO is testament to Morey's system. I will give Harden credit for creating opportunities because he's a threat when he has the ball and forces defenders to gravitate away from 3 point shooters, but as you said in an earlier post, Harden only touches the ball 83.8 times per game. That's 20% of all touches by Rockets players. We can only attribute so much offensive success solely on his attacking the basket and drawing fouls. The plays where we have role players like Ariza or Bev spotting up for 3 after pushing in transition is I think where we see the system guiding the offense.

As for shooting off screens, it's not super surprising for a guy like KD, it's not an efficient shot compared to say attacking the basket. He's got a major athletic advantage, good first step, and can attract superstar calls. Now for a Reddick or Pistons era Rip Hamilton, guys who practices non-stop shooting off the screen, it's a good offensive strategy to keep the defense focused on players beyond the guy pounding the rock. I don't see why we don't have at least Thornton involved in this once or twice a half.

The point about defense, like I said in my original post, is very difficult to measure player performance with public stats. We can say that as a team our defense has slipped, which players are most at fault here? I know Morey and the Rockets do have better data so I think we'll see moves which address this accordingly.

I only quote this because there's some disagreement. I do believe we have talent, at least defensively. The fact that we're doing above average on offense with our talent level speaks to the system in place. Now in terms of defense, I'd argue Dwight, Ariza, and Bev still provide defensive production beyond what most teams out there can give us. The problem is in our defensive schemes, and yes I do believe Harden's weakness on D magnifies the situation.

I know the easy counterpoint is to jump right to the Warriors and say if we replaced those guys with Draymond, Klay, and Bogut we'd be in much better shape. But keep in mind we are 26th in defensive efficiency. That means if we brought in Porzingas, Galloway, and Afflalo we'd be better. Or whoever else is holding down the defensive fort in Dallas and Portland. That's what I have a problem with. If we were middle of the pack on defense, we still wouldn't be contenders, but we'd be 4-7 somewhere in the playoff race right now.

 

No one on this team has ever been told go stand in the corner and hit open threes, not Beverley, not Lawson, not anyone. Stop making **** up.

Nor should they have been because he is a vastly inferior guard to Harden.

Stop making excuses. He was bad because he was bad, no matter what role he was in.

Ty Lawson this year = Jeremy Lin on the Rockets two years ago, except Lin actually managed to be not absolutely terrible in a role off the bench.

http://bkref.com/tiny/xFJFt

 

I'm curious but what exactly does Beverley do on a regular basis besides this?

 

We can scrap the PG position and instead get an SG who can play alongside Harden. He will need to be able to shoot, create a shot for himself, defend 3 different positions, and most importantly be willing to defer to Harden for ballhandling.

I suggest Michael Jordan.

Nah, MJ being here would make him a number 1 option, and Harden would rather stand around doing nothing if he's not number 1 on the team.

 

yup. pretty simple. dont know why many cant see this, and seek all sorts of excuses for him.