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Half-Season Lineups' Stats – What worked for us, and what didn't

Discussion in 'Houston Rockets: Game Action & Roster Moves' started by The Jabberwock, Jan 18, 2014.

  1. The Jabberwock

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    It's been exactly half a season, and that's a good time for another stat review.

    Since TTNN made such a great thread for individual players' stats, I thought I'd focus on lineups.

    Selection Problems (Sample Size)

    Injuries and coaching decisions (minute distribution) have made the lineups' stat analysis very problematic in terms of sample size…

    Some examples to show just how problematic:

    * Let's filter by number of games, shall we?
    You may think it would be a good idea to include only lineups that were used in, say, half of the games this half-season (20 games of 41). Good luck trying – NO ROCKETS LINEUP was used in more than 18 games!!
    Even if you draw the line at a 1/3 of the games (lineups used in 14 games or more), you will be left with only 3 lineups, featuring only our current starters + Lin & Casspi…
    In order to have a nice set of 10 different lineups you need to include lineups that were only used in 7 games!

    * OK, shall we filter by overall minutes?
    So far we played a total of 1,936 minutes, and I first thought of setting the bar at about 15% or 20% of team's overall playing time (only including lineups that were used for 290 or 387 minutes, respectively).
    Well, guess what – NO ROCKETS LINEUP was used that often!
    If you draw the line at 10% of PT (183 minutes) you are left with 2 lineups (Starters with Bev, Starters with Lin).
    For a nice set of 10 different lineups you need to go as low as 30 minutes overall! (Less than 2% of the time!).

    * Shall we perhaps select the most frequent lineups in a way that includes all of our main rotation?
    Also not easy!
    Look at Garcia, for instance – Even though he played in 40 games (!) and got his nice share of minutes (20.3 a game on average) – Still, you will have NO lineup featuring Cisco that played more than 36 minutes overall!
    (Same with AB – He played 33 games and had 17.5 minutes a game on average, but none of his lineups played more than 33 minutes combined!).

    Introducing the lineups for analysis

    At the end, to get a meaningful set of different lineups, I chose to simply select the 10 most frequent lineups in terms of overall use (total minutes), even if they were only used in very few games, and I marked them as lineups A to J,
    Please bear in mind that the further you go down in the alphabet (certainly from lineup G and on) – the less reliable the stats are (SAMPLE SIZE).

    10 Most Frequent Lineups for Analysis (A-J)
    [​IMG]

    I will also display the stats for the next set of lineups, down to #26 (sample size getting as small as 19 minutes overall) separately – not because they're performance has any real significance, but only for the sake of further experimenting: If any lineup, that was used very little, stands out as surprisingly promising – we may want to try it more and expand the sample to a more reliable size.

    * Sadly and surprisingly, even this 2nd set of not-as-frequent lineups still barely features D-Mo (He's in lineup O only. until last game he was missing entirely) it totally overlooks Greg Smith and Canaan.

    16 Next-in-Frequency Lineups (K-Z)
    [​IMG]

    Mark the letters for your lineups of interest!
    First actual stats will follow shortly...


    (all stats from http://stats.nba.com/)
     
    4 people like this.
  2. RedDynasty

    RedDynasty Member

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    Is that you Morey?
     
  3. The Jabberwock

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    [Alert! I noticed that I swaped the descriptions between lineups F & G! Sorry...:confused:]

    OK then!

    First let's look at some basic scoring raw data tables.


    Here are the scoring figures for the 10 most frequent lineups -
    * Shots attempted and made from all ranges
    * Total points scored by lineup, and points scored per 48 minutes
    * Overall +/- achieved by lineup, and +/- per 48 minutes

    [​IMG]

    Some notes:

    1. Our starers* (A) seem to do very well, relatively, in scoring percentage.
    They are ranked second best in FG% and in 3PT%.
    The starters are also quite high (3rd) in overall scoring per 48 minutes.
    2. Our worse shooting lineup by far is I (the TT+Bev).
    Their awfull 3PT% is probably also skewed by CP's shooting,
    (as you may remember - in the TT times he was still struggling from long range)
    3. Two of our best +/- lineups (H, ranked 1st & C, ranked 3rd), that did better than the starters in this stat, are lineups with a stretch-4 (Omri Casspi in both cases).
    4. Not surprisingly, two of our worst main lineups in terms of +/- are the TT lineups.
    5. In the Lin vs Bev debate, the +/- stats show an advantage to Bev's lineup (though both are positive)
     
  4. MaoKhan

    MaoKhan Member

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    this is hurting my head already, before we even get the stats, maybe we just need more consistent lineups?!
     
  5. The Jabberwock

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    ... and here's the same table for the 16 less frequent lineups:

    [​IMG]

    0. ALL stats here should be taen with many grains of salt! Samplesize is problematic! Still:

    1. Note that once again - all the best +/- lineups are stretch-4 lineups!
    (W with Casspi is +78.3 points, U with Casspi is +50.5 points, & Z with Parsons is +48.0 points)
    These 3 lineups are our best scoring lineups by far, in a big margin, both in stellar shooting %
    and in overall scoring per 48 minutes (156.6 points, 144.0 points & 144.0 points respectively).
    BTW - In overall scoring they are followed by the TJ + DMo lineup (130.9 points).

    2. Unfortunately, our 3 worst +/- lineups are also built with a stretch-4 (Though the negative figures are much smaller)
    In the two lowest lineups, K (-25.7) & Y (-17.7), it is Parsons at the PF, and in lineup Q (-11.4) it is Casspi,
    so it looks like CP should stick to the superb SF he is, and leave the PF position (in small-ball) to Omri.

    3. Not surprisingly (or perhaps it is :rolleyes:) - the lineup with Brooks, Garcia, Parsons & Casspi (lineup U)
    was simply exquisite from 3PT - Making 10 of their 12 attempts!! (83%)
    But note that this lineup also has the worst FT%! (I guess it was Asik who went to the line...:p)

    I'm just glancing at the data for the first time.
    Please add your thoughts about is as well.

    Next - some advanced lineup stats, counted per 100 possessions
     
  6. Rockets590

    Rockets590 Rookie

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    Tjones is very talented but I think it is pretty evident team rather have him take a 3..
     
  7. The Jabberwock

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    Here are the Offensive Ratings, Defensive Ratings and Net Ratings
    for our 10 most popular lineups:

    [​IMG]

    With no comments for now - I'm trying to watch tonight's game...:)
     
  8. The Jabberwock

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    So here are the Offensive Ratings, Defensive Ratings and Net Ratings for our 10 most popular lineups:

    [​IMG]

    The findings:

    OffRtg

    1. Surprise! Our best offensive lineup doesn't have Harden in it! Lineup H, featuring Brooks, Garcia, Parsons, Casspi and Howard, has scored 122.5 points per 100 possessions!!
    --[Alert! This lineup's stats may be less significant due to smaller sample size]
    2. Our starting lineup (A, the one with Beverly) is our 2nd best offensive lineup, but it's quite far behind, with 112.9 points per 100 possessions.
    3. Our worst offensive frequent lineup is J, with Beverley, Harden, Garcia, Jones and Howard (Before Jones's beasting last night...), with only 82.6 points per 100 possessions.
    --[Alert! This lineup's stats may be less significant due to smaller sample size]
    4. The 2nd and 3rd worst offensive lineups are the 2 TT lineups, E & I - one featuring Lin, with Harden, Parsons, Asik and Howard, and the other featuring Beverly with the same 4. Those 2 lineups are practically tied with 88.3 and 88.6 points per 100 possessions, respectively.

    DefRtg

    1. Surprise again! Our best defensive lineup DOES have Harden in it! Lineup F, featuring Lin, Harden, Brewer, Jones and Howard, has allowed only 92.2 points per 100 possessions!
    2. The only 2 lineups featuring Casspi - C, the one with Lin, Harden, Parsons and Howard, and H, with AB, Garcia, Parsons and Howard, are tied as 2nd best defensive lineup, allowing only 95.0 and 95.2 points per 100 possessions. (Remember that H is #1 in offense as well!)
    --[Alert! Stats of lineup H may be less significant due to smaller sample size]
    3. Our worst defensive lineup is surprising as well, since it's a Twin-Tower lineup! (with Beverly) - lineup I, which as already mentioned as one of the worst offensive lineups. This lineup allowed 112.7 points per 100 possessions!
    --[Alert! This lineup's stats may be less significant due to smaller sample size]
    4. The 2nd worst defensive lineup is J, also mentioned as a weak offensive crue. They allowed 109.0 points per 100 possessions.
    (Interesting enough, these 2 worst D-lineups have P-Bev in them, though he is considered a good defensive force)
    --[Alert! This lineup's stats may be less significant due to smaller sample size]

    NetRtg

    1. This follows naturally from above -
    The best NetRtg lineup is H. This lineup is very stron in both D and O, and it creates a difference of 27.3 points per 100 possessions!!!
    2. The worst of all lineups are the aforementioned miserable I & J who trail by 26. and 24.2 points per 100 possesions!!
     
  9. Voice of Aus

    Voice of Aus Contributing Member

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    I have numerous reasons why hate the use of lineup statistical arguments, in saying that tell me why I should not think the same about yours?
     
  10. durvasa

    durvasa Contributing Member

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    I think you need to list your reasons first.
     
  11. Harden's beard

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    These are some legitimate stats! I love seeing the O-rtg for the D-mo and TJones lineup. Obviously tiny sample size but funny how people could skew it a certain way. I wonder what that lineups d-rating is. Anyway thanks for the comprehensive stat lines. Obviously Casspi shouldn't get as much crap as he gets because he obviously makes a positive impact on both sides even though he makes some bonehead plays. All in all a great review of the year so far.

    Thanks bro to a post actually being great in the garm!
     
  12. Voice of Aus

    Voice of Aus Contributing Member

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    Fair enough.

    I think it doesn't attribute to any factors such as who they are playing against. This gives the impression to a lot of people that someone like cassipi was balling out of control, he wasn't he wasn't playin up to his full potential but the stats said he was the difference from our horrid defence compared to when he was on the floor we became Indiana 2.0.

    Conversely it can give the impression of certain players who are BALLIN. I remember one poster was so adamant that tjones was killing it about 2 weeks ago that his only argument was "tjones is the only player that appears in all of our top 20 lineups. Those lineups were giving false hope. He is not the major difference maker.

    I also beleive that em only valuable lineups that should be discussed are either the starting lineup (at the start of the game) and the closing lineup (which varies but over time can be relatively worked out). Everything Inbetween is just noise.


    I am open to change and debate on what lineups actually brings to the table but that is my current opinion on them.

    Now your turn?
     
    #12 Voice of Aus, Jan 19, 2014
    Last edited: Jan 19, 2014
  13. durvasa

    durvasa Contributing Member

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    I think this is fair. There are some smart ways out there to analyze lineup statistics, accounting for opposing lineups faced as well, and tease out who the big difference makers are or who are the players that are struggling to help the team. But even the results there, for less than half a season, will be very imprecise on the whole.

    Its tempting to gaze at lineup data, look for some patterns that match our own views of what is going on, and then latch onto this as proof that such-and-such player should play more or less. Usually when one tries to do this they will grossly over-interpret the numbers, mistaking "noise" for "signal".

    We should just keep in mind that game-to-game these statistics will vary wildly, and that there are so many factors outside of just how well the players are performing that can skew the results. Direct comparison of lineup statistics only makes sense when its somewhat close to an apples-to-apples comparison and there is a good enough sample size. The starting lineups with Beverley and then with Jeremy are probably the best candidates for direct comparison that we have so far, but without a good feel for how close to equal the other factors are (scheduling, quality of opponent, health, etc.) I can't view it as very strong evidence one way or the other.
     
  14. Easy

    Easy Boban Only Fan
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    I didn't want to jump in larsv8's Beverley-Lin thread because he did a very good analysis. So I am latching on durvasa's comment here.

    The puzzling thing in that thread is, it's Parsons not Harden that is affected by the different starting PGs, according to larvr8's numbers. (Harden pretty much remains the same with either PG.) That's totally out of the blue and it's not noticeable with the eye test either. I cannot think of any rational reasons why Parsons plays better with Beverley than with Lin.

    Perhaps that is just a random statistical fluctuation (noise) in that body of samples. larsv8 tried to adjust the opponent factors by accounting for the opponent's PPP. That make sense to a degree but as he himself admitted, it did not account for injuries. It also did not account for fatigue factors (e.g. how closely games were scheduled) and other stuff such as whether it's a blow out or a close game.

    It seems to me that the difference in resulting numbers, as well as the sample sizes, are too small to be significant enough to make a definitive conclusion.
     
  15. yummyhawtsauce

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    Does Parson's have a higher usage rate with Bev in instead of Lin? this could be a reason. After all Bev's role is to just dump the ball and take open shots and play D.
     
  16. Voice of Aus

    Voice of Aus Contributing Member

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    I don't think the numbers would show much of a difference, our system doesn't vary based on personal with the starters. It may increase by a tad but not something that would be in correlation with the point guards
    Agree with most of what your saying expect for the insert lin or insert bev. The part I disagree with is because a sample size that we currently have doesn't give any conclusions, it just gives false hope or inconclusive answers.

    That's just my take on lineups. I use to like them now I don't
     
    #16 Voice of Aus, Jan 19, 2014
    Last edited: Jan 19, 2014
  17. Voice of Aus

    Voice of Aus Contributing Member

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    In refremce to the op, if it was me I would try and do a lineup comparison with all the closing lineups, however even that will have limited minutes it could still provide some initial ideas on what has worked
     
  18. yummyhawtsauce

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    good research but, I feel lineups are not perfect, because even if the one lineup you posted is the best scoring offensively, you have to realize who their opponents were too. Good research though. THere's too many variables simply :(
     
  19. vlaurelio

    vlaurelio Contributing Member

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    starters will be playing against starters most of the time
     
  20. durvasa

    durvasa Contributing Member

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    The sample size for both is close to 250 minutes, spread out over a 14 and 17 games respectively. "Conclusions" is a strong word, but its enough minutes and games and opponents faced to where its worth taking a look and then if the results are very different think about why that might be.
     

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