Good Report from Venezuela Shows Elected Pres Chavez still has widespread support

X-PAC · Jan 19, 2003

Originally posted by X-PAC
A man that hangs out with Fidel Castro and raids striking privately owned businesses certainly sounds like a democratic official.
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X-PAC · Jan 19, 2003

Moderater please delete the last post.

Mango · Jan 19, 2003

Originally posted by glynch
..... Mango at least tries to justify his position. His reasoning. Chavez supported a coup in the past. I therefore find him ineligible ,and if I was making the law, legally barred from being elected democratically. Doesn't make any difference, therefore, if he was elected democratically by the people of Venezuela. I can support a coup against him and still be a believer in democratic government.

Mango misses the basic point that it is up to the Venezuelan people to decide who is eligible to run for president and who they want to democratically elect not him nor Bush nor Kissinger.........
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Glynch, here is my original post:

Originally posted by Mango

I respect democratic principles and that is why I don't respect Chavez. He was able to attain the Presidency in Venezuela, but wouldn't make it as President of the US.
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I noted that he wouldn't make it as President of the US and you have yet to refute that. So, I didn't miss your point in regards to Chavez because I recognized from the articles I read that he had been given a pardon and was somehow eligible to run for the Presidency of Venezuela. Would he have been given that same consideration in the US.......I seriously doubt it.
Even if he was pardoned, would the American population vote for someone that had gone against democratic principles in the past?

The article you quoted, mentioned the issue of expecting apologies from the coup plotters of 2002 and I found an article about Chavez celebrating the 10th anniversary of his coup attempt (attack on democracy) in 1992. What kind of double-standard is that?

I did a rough count of the post that started this thread and have you at about 4 for the usage of democracy or some variation of that word. Weisbrot is about the same for the usage of democrcay or a derivative. Neither you or Weisbrot mentioned Chavez's past actions against democrcay and probably wouldn't have discussed it if possible.

I wil close with this.........
If somebody is for democracy, then they should believe in it all of the time and not just when the concept is favorable to their position.

glynch · Jan 20, 2003

Mango

I have no problem with the concept (a coup) since Chavez advocated it in the past. Oh, my mistake.....Chavez is in power now, so any coups in Venezuela are a bad thing and not PC.
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That is your statement. Retract it or stand by it. Your whole series of posts show that the belief in democratic elections is a lot like a belief in free speech. The proof is in the pudding ,if, though it is difficult, one can support the winner when they don't like the results.

Again, sorry to aggravate you by mentioning the concept of democracy repeatedly, but if you believe in democracy, it is isn't up to you to decide that you want to overturn the result of a democratic election in Venezuela just cause you don't like the winner, or you have some sort of tortured analysis that Chavez wouldn't win in the US or something.

Refman:

Have you even paid attention? Have you seen the throngs of Venezuelan people holding up signs to the US TV cameras that read "Help us?"
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Let's see. Some people hold up signs in opposition , therefore a coup against a democratically elected government is warranted? Would it make any difference to you if this was a minority?

Let's have some more info.
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President Hugo Chavez, overwhelmingly elected three years ago, took on one of the most entrenched oligarchies in Latin America--and made some mistakes in the process.

Part of his problem is the reality of Venezuela: an oil-rich nation where 80% of the people are officially designated "poor," where 2% of country controls 60% of the land, and where virtually none of the $30 billion in annual oil revenues trickles down to the vast majority of the population. Changing those demographics would be daunting under any circumstances.

On occasion, Chavez' photo ops with Castro and Ghadafi and his long-winded rhetoric got him in trouble. His reform promises sometimes outran what he could deliver, and cabinet turnover was constant, making policy implementation difficult. Former Chavez supporters joined the oligarchies, the church, and the old guard of the trade unions in opposition.

At the same time, Chavez added one million children to the nation's schools. He increased economic growth by 4 percent. Infant mortality and unemployment dropped, and literacy and minimum wages increased. He also rewrote agreements with Phillips Petroleum and Exxon/Mobil to give Venezuela a bigger slice of its oil revenues, and appointed new directors to the state-owned oil company to keep prices in line with the Organization of Petroleum Exporting Companies. Venezuela has long been a "ratebuster," pumping more oil and selling it for less that OPEC did, thus denying the country the income from higher prices. Of all his accomplishments, this may have been the fatal one. Mess with big oil under the Bush Doctrine at your own peril.

Chavez

Mango · Jan 20, 2003

Originally posted by glynch
Mango

That is your statement. Retract it or stand by it. .......
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My sarcasm and pointing out the irony of the positions that you & Weisbrot take about democrcacy and coups was missed by you.

treason The offense of attempting to overthrow the government of the state to which the offender owes allegiance, or of betraying the state into the hands of a foreign power; disloyalty; treachery.

Chavez committed a treasonous act against the elected government, yet you & Weisbrot will bleat about a coup against him. Weisbrot never mentioned Chavez's past it in his article.....must have been ashamed of mentioning it when talking about democracy.

Originally posted by glynch
.............Again, sorry to aggravate you by mentioning the concept of democracy repeatedly, but if you believe in democracy, it is isn't up to you to decide that you want to overturn the result of a democratic election in Venezuela just cause you don't like the winner..........

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Originally posted by glynch
.......If you don't like the results, try to win the next election. It is the way of democracy....
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Chavez didn't like the results of an election, so he attempted a coup. He didn't follow the criteria that you are dispensing in this thread about democracy. Chavez and the way of democracy have been on opposite sides of the street at times, yet you & Weisbrot brag on the guy. I posted a link showing that Chavez celebrated his attempted coup (treason), yet I keep hearing the democracy angle from you.

Being a leftist is not the issue that I have with Chavez and the advocacy that you & Weisbrot have for him. It is that he is the wrong Poster Child for democracy and you should search for a different leftist leader (democratically elected) to idolize.

Originally posted by glynch
............or you have some sort of tortured analysis that Chavez wouldn't win in the US or something.........

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Treason is a serious matter and should not be taken lightly. When someone is elected President of the United States of America and has being an attempted miltary coup (treason) leader on his/her resume, then this will be a country not worth living in. You think otherwise and that is a gulf that will never be bridged between us.

Refman · Jan 20, 2003

Part of his problem is the reality of Venezuela: an oil-rich nation where 80% of the people are officially designated "poor,"
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The other part of his problem being that he has taken great strides in keeping them that way.

Changing those demographics would be daunting under any circumstances.
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Especially when not doing so keeps the people "needing you," and thus perpetuates your own power.

At the same time, Chavez added one million children to the nation's schools. He increased economic growth by 4 percent. Infant mortality and unemployment dropped, and literacy and minimum wages increased.
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Because we all know that when a leader does such things his government becomes the subject of a civil war. You DO realize they are on the brink of civil war, right? Gee and with what you posted you'd think they'd make him grand marshall of the Rose Bowl parade.

He also rewrote agreements with Phillips Petroleum and Exxon/Mobil to give Venezuela a bigger slice of its oil revenues
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And how much of that did he cleverly keep as a finder's fee....hmmmm?

Of all his accomplishments, this may have been the fatal one. Mess with big oil under the Bush Doctrine at your own peril.
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Ahhh...the old glynch standby. Good to know that things didn't change much around here while I was gone for a few weeks.

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Good Report from Venezuela Shows Elected Pres Chavez still has widespread support

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