Germany anti-Islam protests: 17,000 march on Dresden against 'Islamification of the West'

So what do they think they will accomplish by doing this?

 

Interesting.

DD

 

Again, what will this accomplish?
Let me put it this way. The bad Muslims will probably either ignore this or rile up their extremist base.
The good Muslims will feel alienated and probably increase support for the extremist elements.

So what good comes out of this. Also, I head that the types of people in this protest are your neo-nazi types. Not the types you really want to root for.

 

So the issue with these protests is that it's a very weird mix of people that is protesting: Some people who are just conservatives/patriots and/or who are genuinely concerned about the negative impact of the aggressive ideology of Islam, but also other people who are simply xenophobic, racist, nationalist, stupid.

Therefore, I could not support protests like this. It's almost impossible to speak out against Islam as an ideology without getting applause and support "from the wrong people" (xenophobes, racists, nazis). That's what makes public discourse on the topic of Islam so difficult. If someone rightly points out that Islam is a totalitarian ideology, some other guy might say "you are right, let's hate all Muslims"...even if that is not what you said and nothing you would ever want to say or be associated with.

On the other hand, many people are already organizing "anti-PEGIDA" protests...and there, you also have a weird mix. Leftists, Islamists, and simply well-meaning people who are against xenophobia and nationalism. I accidentally got stuck in Munich the other day because I parked in a garage and when I came back, an "anti-PEGIDA" demonstration of tens of thousands of people was going on.

I think that all these protests are a sign of people recognizing that the aggressive expansionism of Islam (e.g., Erdogan's "religious authority" is trying to undermine the German state by building huge super-mosques in Germany from which an aggressive brand of Sunni Islam shall be promoted as a sign of a land-grab, etc.) is an issue. But people are confused on the issue. They need to understand that xenophobia and nationalism are not the answer, and they need to understand that you can be against the aggressive ideology, but not against Muslims as people (as long as they are peaceful and not intolerant). On the other hand, well-meaning people who are against xenophobia need to understand that being against Islamism does not mean being xenophobic or racist - being against Islamism means speaking up for tolerance and against totalitarianism.

To a large extent, the public discourse that is now starting on the topic mirrors the discussions we have had on this forum for years.

I think that the intelligent posters on this subforum understand my position:

- against religious totalitarianism
- against intolerance in the name of a religion (e.g. against women, homosexuals, "non-believers")
- against violence in the name of a religion (with Islam being the religion I am most concerned about)
- but also strongly against xenophobia, racism and nationalism

So I wouldn't really fit in with PEGIDA as they are too infiltrated by actual racists, xenophobes and nationalists, although I share their concerns about Islam. I would also not fit in with the anti-PEGIDA protesters, because many of them do not understand that being concerned about aggressive, intolerant and totalitarian aspects of an ideology such as Islam(ism) does not automatically make you a racist or xenophobe.

 

As I said in my previous post, it's tricky. How do you speak up in an organized form against Islamist expansionism at all, then, if following your argument? By your logic, one cannot say anything because whenever you say something both the "good Muslims" and the "bad Muslims" take it the wrong way?

The sad thing is that this movement immediately gets infiltrated by neo-nazi types (as I tried to explain in my previous post). So, to stay with what you said before, not only do the "good Muslims" and the "bad Muslims" take it the wrong way, but you also get support from "the bad Germans (Europeans)" as soon as you speak up against Islam. But I would say that the vast majority of the people in the PEGIDA movement are far from neo-nazis. They are just concerned citizens. But the leftists in Germany immediately try to stifle any discussion by branding ANYONE who criticizes Islam a neo-nazi. See the BBC article below.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-30478321

Anti-Islam 'Pegida' march in German city of Dresden

About 15,000 people have taken part in a march against "Islamisation of the West" in the east German city of Dresden.

A large counter-demonstration of more than 5,000 people was also held. No major incidents were reported.

Dresden is the birthplace of a movement called "Patriotic Europeans Against the Islamisation of the West" (Pegida), which staged a big rally a week ago.

Chancellor Angela Merkel warned Germans not to be exploited by extremists.

"There's freedom of assembly in Germany, but there's no place for incitement and lies about people who come to us from other countries,'' Mrs Merkel said in Berlin.

"Everyone [who attends] needs to be careful that they are not taken advantage of by the people who organise such events."

In Monday's march, protesters chanted Wir sind das Volk (we are the people) - a rallying cry used in the city in the weeks before the fall of the Berlin Wall 25 years ago.

One elderly man shouted: "I'm a pensioner. I only get a small pension but I have to pay for all these people (asylum seekers). No-one asked me!"

A woman who travelled 80km (50 miles) for the demonstration told the BBC: "I am not right wing, I'm not a Nazi. I am just worried for my country, for my granddaughter."

Earlier, Justice Minister Heiko Maas called Pegida's protests "a disgrace". But the Eurosceptic party Alternativ fuer Deutschland (AfD) is sympathetic.

"Most of their demands are legitimate," said Bernd Lucke, leader of AfD, which has campaigned for a tougher policy on immigration, as well as rejection of the euro.

In the western city of Cologne, about 15,000 people attended a demonstration on Sunday to promote tolerance and open-mindedness, under the motto: "You are Cologne - no Nazis here."

Clutching German flags, candles and banners, thousands of people joined a demonstration ostensibly against the so-called Islamisation of Germany.

"No sharia law in Europe!" proclaimed one banner.

But it rapidly became clear that most here are protesting against high levels of immigration and asylum seekers.

A few years ago such scenes would have been inconceivable in this country. Many in Germany are ashamed and horrified - not just by the numbers at this demonstration but by support for right-wing groups elsewhere.

What has startled politicians, though, is that many in the crowds at Dresden are not extremists or neo-Nazis. As conservative politician Wolfgang Bosbach puts it, these are concerned mothers and pensioners.

The sheer numbers at recent demonstrations are forcing a public discussion around immigration. It's a debate with which many feel deeply uncomfortable. But it's a debate which many also say can no longer be ignored.

Grey line
Immigration has become a hot topic in Germany this year, amid a surge in the numbers of asylum seekers, fuelled by the wars in Syria and Iraq. Germany takes in more asylum seekers than any other EU country.

Germany expects 200,000 asylum claims for 2014, up from 127,000 in 2013.

German media report that Pegida grew out of a Facebook group launched by Lutz Bachmann, 41, a chef-turned-graphic designer. He insists that he is not racist. He has admitted to past criminal convictions, including for drug-dealing. He says he spent two years in prison.

The AfD leader in Dresden, Frauke Petry, said Pegida "is protesting against inadequate legislation on asylum rights - they are also demanding that German law be applied against law-breakers, and they are opposing religious extremism".

The centre-left Social Democrats (SPD) - in the ruling coalition with Mrs Merkel's Christian Democrats - called Pegida's organisers "Nazis in pinstripes".

Police sources, quoted by the Spiegel online news website, said hundreds of Pegida activists in Dresden were members of two hooligan groups regarded as far-right.

Minister Maas said Pegida must be "unmasked", and he called for a "broad counter-movement embracing civil society and all political parties".

 

I think my personal position is mostly aligned with where recently deceased writer and Holocaust survivor Ralph Giordano stood. He said that Erdogan's plans to build huge super-mosques in Germany were not aimed at building places for prayer, but at symbolizing a triumphant land grab. So he was opposed to them. But at the same time, he was disgusted by neo-nazis who were also against the mosques (but simply because they are xenophobic scumbags).

http://www.newenglishreview.org/blo...rab-not-a-place-of-prayer-says-Ralph-Giordano

 

was ATW there

 

I think only real native Germans were allowed.

 

The one thing good minorities and bad minorities have in common is that they're outnumbered. Conformist and cooperative minorities further process that information and understand their inclusion and acceptance is not at all necessary to a fully functioning society, as the majority can always build more prisons and slums to get rid of dead weight.

 

Spoiler

 

So . . .. about 80~100 years ago . . . .who was this country 'ANTI-" (rising against)?
How did that turn out?

Rocket River

 

Not sure about these protests but Muslims in Europe have not integrated well at all.

 

Thanks for the dumb post of the day.

Because of something that happened in history, people should not be allowed to speak up against a totalitarian ideology such as political Islam?

By that logic, most people in most countries in the world could never be "anti" anything.

 

Yeah most are xenophobes, but what good has Islam done in the West the past 25 years? What entitles them to receive sharia law , then stab open minded westerners in the back? Islam needs to be a little more open minded, instead of the perverted little brother of christianity.

 

*chuckle*

Rocket River

 

Rocket River, just wondering: Have you ever been out of the USA? (other than maybe Cancun)

 

it would be weird celebrating the world cup victory 6 months after the fact, so they just hitched on to anti islam just for the gathering. =)

 

Very interesting development. I have visited Munich before. How does one go about identifying a Muslim in Germany and who walks with Jesus and who walks with the enemy? They need some sort of identifying badge or button to make me understand who I should be at ill ease with on the bus and on the streets.

 

Agree 100%.